BM7/21/2016 10:42:04 AM
GW basketball players report coach’s ‘verbal and emotional abuse’; many fled school
BM7/21/2016 10:52:00 AM
Sadly, I believe every word.
GW Alum Abroad7/21/2016 10:53:44 AM
Oh my! I am sure this is going to generate a wide range of reactions here (from "stupid media" to "ML must go"). I am unhappy with the anonimity of the sources, but if the Post has the email trail then I am also unhappy with the stonewalling from the University. Not the off-season coverage I was looking for...
GW05097/21/2016 10:54:12 AM
Buff and Blue '827/21/2016 10:54:14 AM
I just read this online and it literally turned my stomach. Just awful publicity for the school and the program. I'm afraid where there's smoke there's fire.
Jr227/21/2016 10:58:58 AM
Program killing article. Game over
Still Here7/21/2016 11:02:21 AM
Longest article WaPo has written about us.
Colonial NY7/21/2016 11:02:37 AM
Wow. Not good. It goes over the top of what many have suspected around here. This is the kind of story and bad publicity that forces changes at the top. It will be VERY interesting to see how this plays out over the next few weeks or months for the team and the future of ML and PN. I am just not sure how it will play out.
Abe7/21/2016 11:08:37 AM
Sadly those allegations track with rumblings I've heard about Lonergan from people outside the program so I'm inclined to believe them. Think this ends with him resigning or being fired.
22.214.171.1247/21/2016 11:09:06 AM
Why would ML hate Nero so much? He only hired him and gave him extensions.
gonzo7/21/2016 11:18:34 AM
heartwrenching. if any of this is true, it's pretty much done. the alledged food stamps comment and agressive homophobia put an otherwise normal complaint about some athetic coaches into a something more unforgiveable. if true.
DCAbloob7/21/2016 11:20:34 AM
Someone's already tweeted Dan Steinberg that Lonergan did the same thing to a friend of his back at Catholic. Good lord.
gwsb147/21/2016 11:22:16 AM
Can't say this enough. Fire.
Still Here7/21/2016 11:22:46 AM
The good news is that if ANY of it is true, GW will know it for a fact. They will have the complaints on file. There is no chance that this article would drive change unless its true. So, however things work out it will be for the best.
GW '167/21/2016 11:24:53 AM
I scrolled straight to the bottom after I saw the masturbating comment hoping to see a "this article is a satire." I did not find such a thing for those who are wondering.
Craig Martinez7/21/2016 11:24:56 AM
This is so sad to hear, as someone who is less tuned in to the inner-workings. I had alweays assumed Lonergan was a pretty good guy who was tough on players who wouldnt adopt his system and play style.
I hope he is out soon, that we can find a good coach and that we dont lose too many players and recruits. He is obviously not a coach that I can root for if even a fraction of these points are true.
BM7/21/2016 11:25:15 AM
dmvpiranha7/21/2016 11:27:23 AM
I know it shouldn't be the focus of the issue at hand, but does anybody have any guesses as to which players are associated with this incident? PJ came to mind first, as well as Nick, Cimino and Swan
Craig Martinez7/21/2016 11:33:31 AM
It is irrelevant, and frankly shouldnt be discussed on this board, where posters have a tendancy to slander players.
The MV7/21/2016 11:33:50 AM
Stunning to read but I can't say I am 100% shocked. A while ago, I posted here about a friend of a friend whose son had played for ML at Vermont and was not treated as respectfully as one would expect. Am also not shocked because no matter how well you may think you know someone from having cordial conversations with them, some human beings turn into presumably different people when placed in competitive or high pressure situations. Mike's competitiveness does come through talking one-to-one, but not at all like this article depicts. The most interesting quote came from the former member of his staff who readily acknowledged that most players do transfer over a lack of playing time but in this situation, there is more to the story than this.
Should he lose his job over this? Absolutely not. However, even if he feels he has done nothing wrong, it's obvious that he is going to have to change his ways. Even if these alleged comments were not said exactly as presented, there is a strong likelihood that ML conveyed these themes to some extent. Sexual orientation comments, once the accepted subject of "boys club humor", simply can't be uttered in a derogatory manner, be it as a joke or otherwise, in 2016. He's a guy who tells it like it is but must now learn to hold back. He also must realize that no matter what he says and to who he says it to, a trust has the potential to be violated.
Players will always come and go but the other issue that needs to be addressed is the Lonergan-Nero relationship. "What the hell" comes to mind here. It sounds like these two will never wholly patch things up, but can they continue to have a functional working relationship? How critical is it for them to do so? Can each simply go about doing their jobs (both are very effective at doing just that), or does the damage that these allegations suggest create an impossibility for this to happen?
Am very interested to see what the school has to say once it concludes its investigation. Until then, this is just one very sad yet speculative story.
Craig Martinez7/21/2016 11:41:52 AM
I disagree with you MV, pending an investigation, he has possibly sexually harrassed the AD and Students. Those are absolutely fireable offenses.
NewGWFan7/21/2016 11:46:06 AM
Wow. I am floored by this... I just literally can't right now.
Orel Miraculous7/21/2016 11:47:24 AM
He needs to lose his job. The fact that he's a disgraceful human being is only part of the reason--he's also lost all ability to recruit now. The only hope is to immediately promote Hajj and hope that he can convince most of the players to stay on board.
Formerly Senioritis7/21/2016 11:49:59 AM
I have always thought Lonergan did not have the best "bedside manner" and assumed that players did not like him. However, my assumption was that he just rode them too hard, put them down for poor play and lacked any social awareness of how to connect with a player whose confidence may be shaken. I NEVER thought that this would stem into homophobia, classism or any other PC term for disgusting attitudes towards others.
For those of you on this board that claim to be more connected with the program and say you're "not surprised," shame on you. If you're not surprised by this then you had an obligation to speak up about this sort of disgusting behavior. People tend to get caught up in trying to win and will do so at all costs but the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Verbal and emotional abuse is well beyond that line.
If the school knew about this but simply sent our Associate Athletic Director to "babysit" Lonergan then this is even worse and borders on a cover up. I'm embarasssed to be associated with this program right now.
BACCAS927/21/2016 11:50:30 AM
What the Hell? This explains recruiting.
NewGWFan7/21/2016 11:52:17 AM
Every recruit in the world immediately drops GW from consideration.
gwsb147/21/2016 11:54:33 AM
There is no question Lonergan should be removed by the end of the day today.
BACCAS927/21/2016 11:56:05 AM
Dude did you write the article? C'mon....from the article and from the Dude's post---exactly the same tone. They plagarized the Dude like Trump's wife plagarized Michelle Obama's speech:
"The three most recent departures this offseason leaves only one player remaining from the five-member class recruited just two years ago."
Why the fuck did I renew yesterday. I should have waited a day.
Still Here7/21/2016 12:04:28 PM
Am I the only one who noticed how often the author of this article went in and out of quotes filling in gaps for the reader? Strikes me more like the way reality shows shape quotes to paint a picture for you, whether it's the true picture or not.
Some of the most damning parts of the article were not in quotes, but rather conclusions drawn by the writer. Again I will say that if he is fired, he will be fired because of the information the university already had and chose not to act on. This article may just be shining a light on it.
seangw837/21/2016 12:05:10 PM
Yikes. Worst story in a long while. Maybe Carm can be HC to keep some continuity?
Still Here7/21/2016 12:06:13 PM
Like this WHOLE part was not in quotes... Why? If someone said it, then quote it.
Players said Lonergan shared his distaste for Nero in a manner both inappropriate and outlandish. Five current and former players said Lonergan made explicit remarks about Nero, among them telling them to avoid Nero because he was obsessed with them.
Five current and former players said Lonergan told players Nero requested the practice tapes so he could masturbate while viewing them in his office. The players said Lonergan also told them Nero had engaged in a sexual relationship with a member of the team. Players said they found those comments to be shocking and offensive, with no grounding in reality.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 12:07:32 PM
All I can say is this ... I am shocked ... no make that flabbergasted over this article. I have known Mike for many years. There is no doubt he is a demanding coach. But the conduct ascribed to him here? I just can't see it. I have conversed with him privately and confidentially about all things GW during his tenure here. Not once did he make any of the comments regarding Nero or anything even remotely similar. He has trusted me with things that he would not want posted here. So I ask myself wouldn't he have let slip one time one of these comments to a confidant? Would he be that guarded with an adult male but trust a 19 or 20-year old player in this day and age? I find that hard to believe unless he has two completely different personalities. Something doesn't add up here and given that not one person would go on record is concerning.
But it is incumbent on GW to learn the truth of the matters asserted. Either this is a horrible hit piece with no factual basis or as they say "Houston, we have a problem." But knowing Mike as I do I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Something isn't right with this story but I don't claim to know everything that goes on.
126.96.36.1997/21/2016 12:13:17 PM
188.8.131.527/21/2016 12:13:53 PM
the article is 100% true, if anything he left out things he was unable to get information. I understand Mike's friend wanting to defend him, but unfortunately the story didn't stretch the truth.
Jose Marti7/21/2016 12:15:34 PM
I'm stunned. The behavior alleged in the article has no place at GW. Assuming it's true, and I have no reason to doubt it, I feel for the players who were abused.
NewGWFan7/21/2016 12:15:57 PM
We have been clamoring for more coverage in the Washington Post.
hungryhungrytrachtenberg7/21/2016 12:18:32 PM
Trying to take all of this in and feeling sick in the stomach. Was planning on calling to re-up my season tickets today.
notta hater7/21/2016 12:23:15 PM
it's a millennial thing, you would not understand!
NJ Colonial7/21/2016 12:24:21 PM
Shocking and disappointing article but how about we wait to hear more facts and from the university and Lonergan? Too many posters on this site are doom and gloom, jump to conclusions and want to think the worse.
The MV7/21/2016 12:25:19 PM
Why is it that so few of you seem to be familiar with the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"? Kilgore clearly presented one side of the story, without a single named source, while Lonergan opted not to be interviewed. What we do know is that the school looked into this in 2014-15 and zero penalties were issued. Many of you are willing to assume that a cover-up was in place but perhaps, the result of that investigation produced zero punishable offenses. This year, an associate athletic director followed the team around all year, practices, games, etc., but reported no detrimental acts to the school. Not a single incident. It was only when former players and a former staff member came forward to air their concerns or give their opinions did this even become a story.
I am not saying that ML is completely innocent of anything, but I am saying that many of your rushes to judgement are very unfair at this point in time. Let's see what the investigation unfolds. If there was a cover-up last time, it would stand to reason that the truth should and will come out this time.
hungryhungrytrachtenberg7/21/2016 12:26:35 PM
If all of these words are indeed true, I feel terrible for the students who had to endure this environment and make a significant change in their life.
Players, you were and are appreciated by the GW community even if you felt trapped in such a negative environment.
Hoping these stories are untrue, however I have to think such a well ochestrated and documented defamation attempt is unlikely.
What does Nero and GW do now?
Maine Colonial7/21/2016 12:31:17 PM
Wow...The Post has a way of consistently raining on GW's parade whether it is GW and the NGA taking over the Corcoran or now this story coming out just as the GW Athletics Program is beginning to challenge the school across Rock Creek. I wonder why the story is coming out now instead of the week of the NIT tournament? It looks like the trip to Japan is going to be a little awkward for a lot of people and I'm also guessing Nero and Lonergan won't be rooming together. But then again that might be a good idea so Nero can keep an eye on him.
Long Suffering Fan7/21/2016 12:32:05 PM
First thing that came to mind was back in the 1980s, when several players approaced the Washington Times about abusive behavior by Jerry Gimelstob, which resulted in his firing (and sent us spiraling to 1-27 shortly thereafter). As for the article, wow. A couple of things I am looking for is (1) a statement from Lonergan (he has to respond); and (2) whether any of his current returning players have his back. Don't simply brush off MV's comments that this is a firing offense...unlike Gimelstob, his mentor Bobby Knight, the Rutgers coach, etc., there is no indication he was physically abusive toward the kids, but if the article is substantially true, regrettably he does have to go, as this could put a big hurting on both our future recruiting ability as well as the image of the school. I am afraid we may be getting ready to crash and burn, and me be in for several long years of viewing.
NJ Colonial7/21/2016 12:35:11 PM
Great posts MV and Maine C.!
jz7/21/2016 12:37:46 PM
I'd like to see some of these allegations on the record, but the fact that some of it comes with email corroboration is pretty damning, imho. No player deserves to be treated this way, obviously, and to learn that the behavior we all witnessed on the sidelines extended so much deeper away from the public eye is stomach churning.
That said, I actually may be most offended by the language about Nero. Every engagement I've ever had with him has been positive. He's gone above and beyond to advocate for the program and the school, working serious enthusiastic overtime to get people engaged. I can't imagine a workplace that would tolerate this kind of treatment either of subordinates or a boss, and, unfortunately, I think we have many, many more days of this story ahead of us.
Skittles7/21/2016 12:39:18 PM
none of what was written is true. Those with any real inside knowledge would know. Stay strong guys.
LA Fan7/21/2016 12:40:35 PM
GW can't have a coach who treats players this way. That being said, I don't know if this article is a guilty verdict for ML. The school would need to thoroughly investigate these claims and come to their own conclusion. That could take months - right up to the start of the season.
Still, there is no good outcome to this:
1. ML did these things, in which case he should be fired.
2. ML didn't do these things. But even if that's the case this article kills our recruiting. Every school competing for a player with us is going to wave this article in front of the prospective recruit.
I am so bummed about this because it seemed like GW was running a clean program with good players. The number of players transferring definitely got me thinking though. I guess my only thought is why? If this is true why did ML act this way when he didn't have to?
thinker7/21/2016 12:43:49 PM
Adam Kilgore is a serious journalist at a serious newspaper so it's not some blog somewhere. It was cloaked with annonymity because it had to be to protect the players. But to repeatedly say 5 former and current players confirm is to say that this is something that has been widespread.
I knew that there were real "abuse" problems with the Hobbs holdover players -- particularly TT and Pellom but I had no notion that this was an ongoing thing. I chalked that up to trying to get the holdovers to buy in to the new system.
I also know that a bunch of kids simply do not make up stuff like this and coordinate it amongst each other. It is very damning and the personal nature of the attacks on Nero make it extremely hard for both to remain at GW. And GW has shown itself to not have a very high tolerance for "questionable" practices by the coach -- even if he is winning. And it's hard to gain support within the Administration for ML if the guy who would normally do that is the subject of his attacks.
This is simply awful.
As a former political person and a sometimes crisis management person, this is super serious and ML probably needs sme type of intervention. He likely needs to understand that what he's doing (calling players etc) is going to make things worse not better (even if he thinks the charges are unfair).
He's going to need to admit that he's made mistakes, that he is committed to doing better, and that he is going to undergo some type of training or therapy etc. to do better at managing his emotions. Even if he thinks it's unfair. That needs to happen pretty quickly or this thing will really continue to trend in the wrong direction. Still I don't know if he will or even can do something like that. It's a dark day for GW Basketball and at out the blue.
MG'147/21/2016 12:44:09 PM
Zeke Armwood has tweeted a few things in support of Lonergan (sort of).
The Dude7/21/2016 12:44:21 PM
Shocking stunning and sad, almost impossibe to read this story and not believe the charges contained within it. A terrible day for the University. Got of a meeting and just stunned to read this. Hope this ends the refrain of "every school has its transfers" After each of the past four seasons, three players have transferred out of GW, bringing the total to 13 in Lonergan’s five years. Over the past two seasons, according to people familiar with the situation, the school has fielded complaints from players about Lonergan.
Long Suffering Fan7/21/2016 12:46:30 PM
Good point, Maine Colonial? Why now for this story? It would seem that something must have happened recently to bring this story up to the front burner? Did the return of the players trigger something? May of the transfers out were understandable...the players did not seem to have what it took to succeed on our level, but admittedly some of the transfers were quite puzzling (i.e. Damien Bryant after one year. Kethan Savage his senior year, Paul Jorgensen who was looking at a major role on this year's team) I am stunned. And thank you for the vote of confidence as new coach, BACCAS92, however I must decline. Now, on the other hand, if additional transfers open up a spot for an overweight 5'8" shooting guard who cannot otherwise pass, dribble, defend or rebound...
The Dude7/21/2016 12:48:12 PM
Also, IMO, this does end the mystery I've posed many times of why we had such a great class of 2012 and have recruited very poorly ever since, hard to imagine that word (as others noted above) did not spread around the recruiting and AAU circles and damage recruiting the last several years.
danjsport7/21/2016 12:49:54 PM
I offer no judgment as to the truth or falsity of anything in the report. I don't know the players, the coach, or anybody else in the department. And, even if I did, I wouldn't be able to verify the truth or falsity of these statements without being witness to any of it in person.
That said, this story has made a national newspaper and, at quick google, deadspin and sports illustrated. It's not a story that's going away immediately, and it's certainly one with a bad PR look for the program, regardless of whether what is said is true or not.
Whether true or not, this will be tough to recover from. Here's hoping GW recovers, one way or the other.
Free Quebec7/21/2016 12:51:26 PM
I'm going to break my lurker silence to say that this is bad. Homophobic slurs are unacceptable and go beyond just "normal" dickish coaching. I am not surprised that there are disgruntled players trashing him for being too harsh on them, but some of the specifics go beyond the line. I don't know what ML's legal or technical defense would be, but GW needs to seriously consider letting the guy go. Turner could take over.
Thomas7/21/2016 12:51:48 PM
Before I get serious, I've got to acknowledge 'Poster' for putting the "Crying Jordan Face" meme on GW's logo...GREAT job!!! I hate the Crying Jordan meme's, but that one made me chuckle.
This story stunned me. We've heard stories and could see during games that Mike Lonergan could be a bit unhinged during games(but not at a Bob Knight/Danny Hurley level), but I thought that was as far as it went. The quotes from players about ML going on weird rants, ML telling a player that "His Son Will Always Be On Food Stamps", ML telling another player that "He Should Transfer To A Transgender League and his homophobic insults against Pat Nero was beyond disturbing!!!
I heard them talking about this on Sportstalk980 about 30 minutes ago and if this becomes a national story, GW may have to get rid of ML quickly!! The things working in ML's favor right now is that everyone is speaking anonomously and he still has enough players to field competent team.
Still Here7/21/2016 12:55:44 PM
Sorry but no. If you are writing an article as accusitory as this, you do not tell the story yourself. You can't write "players said that" and then paraphrase. Just writing for the Hatchet they will tell you not to do that. I 100% get the anonymity, singling these kids out to be made targets again would not be fair. My complaint is that the writer does not strike me as a "serious journalist". This is first day stuff. Other peoples opinions go in quotes, your opinions don't.... You dont summarize someone elses statements in your own words.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 12:58:34 PM
Glad to see Skittles chimed in here. Until proven otherwise, ML gets the benefit of the doubt especially against anonymous charges. Because some Post writer claims all of this happened doesn't just make it so. Anyone recall the UVA rape article in Rolling Stone? As I said before, ML is a demanding coach but it would be damn near impossible for him to coach as successfully as he has with such an environment present. He is not Mike Rice. I promise you that. If this turns out to be bullshit, I hope ML owns the Washington Post and the dude who wrote the article is sent to fucking writer's Siberia. Very hard to get your reputation back.
FIRE KARL HOBBS7/21/2016 12:58:35 PM
isaih armwood twitter
Lonergan verbally and emotionally abused them. Go find another sport. It's called MENS basketball.
1 retweet1 like
Isaiah Armwood @Zeek_Armwood 16m16 minutes ago
Idk about the other parts of the article referring to the AD Patrick Nero, he was always good AD in my eyes but as far as players saying
0 retweets2 likes
Isaiah Armwood @Zeek_Armwood 19m19 minutes ago
This is 100% bullshit.Verbal and emotional abuse. Are you serious ? Players are soft ...
Free Quebec7/21/2016 1:01:04 PM
I wlll also add, to MV's point, if the truth is that the story is ML is guilty, the university received complaints and stepped in to educate him on why it's unacceptable to use homophobic and other derogatory comments in this day and age, assigned an Assistant AD to shadow the program, he changed his ways, and then disgruntled players took it to the Post anyway despite a change in behavior.... then I could see GW saying we've dealt with it and as long as he continues to behave as he did last year, we're good. But otherwise, this is a real problem.
The Dude7/21/2016 1:03:09 PM
Two initial reactions, hard to believe the accusations are totally false, and 2nd, every man and woman is entitled to a good defense. But if even a portion of the accusations are true, and I'm not saying that 100% they are true, but IF even a portion are true, ML needs to be let go.
He also needs to speak on the matter and speak quickly as this story as folks noted above has already gone national and is obviously just terrible PR for the University, which is much bigger than its hoops program.
ziik7/21/2016 1:03:44 PM
Welcome home, Joe Dooley.
Seriously, I have not read the Post. (Still digesting the Post's fold out special on Pato). They do set us up like we are Marion Barry Incharnate. Ask for occasional publicity for basketball success, and they save up all sorts of shit on us instead. That bitch paper set us up, again.
Skittles7/21/2016 1:04:55 PM
thank you Bo.
notta hater7/21/2016 1:07:10 PM
The Post granted anonymity to current and former George Washington players and staffers because they feared reprisals that could affect the future of their careers. - in my estimation this quote makes it a bit of a slam article (they did not have to embellish the rationale for the fear). I have only a tiny bit of faith in the words of kids leaving a program to be honest brokers of information. They can frequently shape their narrative to be consistent with whatever choice they've made and their explanation for their choice. Does ML have room to move to a different place within the framework of the community and how a coach should conduct his program and himself - hell yes! Do I believe this in the context of how it's written - hell no!
bro'd7/21/2016 1:07:36 PM
ML probably has very bad social awareness when it comes to his players. He thinks that they're 100% behind him when he's raging on Nero when in reality they don't want to get involved in his drama. Coupled with ill timed cynical sex jokes and I could completely see how that creates a really awkward and uncomfortable place to be.
The part that resonated with me the most was how players didn't like the one on one interactions they've had with ML. I can totally picture poor PG standing there shooting hoops while ML comes in the gym and starts going off after a meeting with Nero.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 1:11:01 PM
Nothing more than Locker Room talk. Get over it.
2cents7/21/2016 1:11:07 PM
Big picture for GW basketball program, whether it's true or not, is not good. I think the only two things that save this program and keep it going in a positive direction for the next several years are 1.) The article and aligations are proven completely false or 2.) Cinderella season. Otherwise, recruiting is going to be an even bigger hill to climb than it already is. This is a bummer.
2cents7/21/2016 1:11:58 PM
...and I'm glad you're still a lurker FQ.
Hugh7/21/2016 1:12:53 PM
Not going to speculate on the accuracy of the accusations or whether a line was crossed, but a few things come to mind that are conveniently left out of the story: his transfer rate is in line with the rest of Division 1 basketball; only one of the transfers received signficant playing time (two if you include PJ, but his playing time went down significantly); he has two of his former players on his coaching staff (Mojo and Chris Holm).
This type of context is important to include if you're going to write a story like this.
Chet7/21/2016 1:13:26 PM
I have a few guesses as to who the anonymous quotes are coming from, but as of now they are still anonymous quotes, and if they are from former players then why wouldn't those former players allow their names to be next to their quotes? Personally I hope ML and the school don't respond any more than they have already to prevent further publicity caused by an article full of absurd quotes conveniently provided by anonymous yet reliable sources. Using someone's description above, and couldn't have said it better myself, I also find it suspicious that in between all the extreme things ML supposedly said and did, the the article is written like a mad lib where the author read the story before filling in the blanks with statements that make the reader jump to very extreme conclusions.
I wonder if the school did anything about those allegations? Oh wait, they had a full investigation and had ML tailed by someone all season and that person was unable to find any punishable offenses also. I'm sure this issue finally coming to light (other than it going around the Aau circuit already and secretly hurting our recruiting -the dude) would have forced GW to investigate, but obviously they saw this coming. The next step would be to get some names and proof behind some of these (if true) very eye-opening offenses. Until that happens and any of this gains any sort of credibility I'll sit back and keep my personal insights and opinions to myself.
Craig Martinez7/21/2016 1:15:15 PM
"Nothing more than locker room talk." ya... or sexual harassment and abuse, but who is nitpicking.
That hyper masculine "gym talk" mentality bullshit doesnt win basketball games and it doesnt make a better coach or leader, and it doesnt craft young men into stronger leaders. What it does is alienate and hurt.
The world has enough bullshit nonsense without this kind of teaching.
Yinka dont Stinka7/21/2016 1:20:19 PM
Stunning. I don't see anyway Longeran can survive this. Damage was done the moment this article was printed.
The Dude7/21/2016 1:24:23 PM
danjsport7/21/2016 1:24:35 PM
I appreciate those that don't believe this is true. I, again, offer no opinion. However, there are clearly some things that ARE true. Some student-athlete went to the Title IX coordinator to make a complaint. Some other (or maybe the same) student went to Nero to make a complaint. This information must be true because the Post stated it had the emails in its possession. Maybe the statements made to the coordinator and Nero are false--again, I have no idea.
But from a PR perspective, the fact is, at least one student went up the ladder to complain about ML. That much is true. So while I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about ML, I also won't jump to conclusions about the students that made comments either.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 1:25:29 PM
If I was guessing, ML's lawyer advised him not to speak to the Post because his words could be misquoted. I am sure at some time ML will speak on this.
And to address the particular charge that he used homophobic remarks, that would be just so out of character for him. As I've mentioned, I've been around him enough to know if he is a guy who would say stuff like that- seen him in bars and other social settings. The other part that doesn't make sense is why would you criticize the AD to your players? What would be gained by that?
My gut tells me that it is entirely plausible that someone concocted the perfect recipe to get him fired as a retaliatory move. Allege verbal abuse and throw in a little homophobia and history shows that will do the trick. I am telling you parents and their disgruntled players are sick these days. You all have no idea but I could share many stories including one in Montgomery County where it was alleged that a high school coach caused a kid to commit suicide but was proven to be completely baseless.
The point is the rush to judgment is way out in front of the facts right now.
jz7/21/2016 1:26:14 PM
Interestingly, those Zeke Armwood tweets have picked up likes from JoeMac and Cavanaugh.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 1:31:15 PM
I did not post the locker room talk post. Whoever is posting as me don't you think this is a little too serious an issue to be fucking around? All the other posts so far are mine.
Chet7/21/2016 1:31:50 PM
Danjsport well said
Many have mad great points on both sides just make sure the points u are making don't get their foundations from the assumption that ML actually said word for word some of these things.
Also before I forget, if you have the means and really want to know more, I would bet a lot of money that the email the Wapo obtained is a great read if you're into that kind of stuff, random anonymous quotes merged and paraphrased to prove a point and allow the reader to jump to a conclusion
Maine Colonial7/21/2016 1:38:11 PM
If ML is so bad, why would Jaren Sina's dad let him transfer and stay? And why would Alex Mitola let his brother Adam walk on? It sounds like a Big East/Butler Boys hit to me.
Paul Manafort7/21/2016 1:41:41 PM
The charges are false and planted by Hillary Clinton and Obama, they are to blame, end of story. My word is my bond.
Florida Colonial7/21/2016 1:42:46 PM
Good points Maine. Guilty or innocent this will effect peoples lives for a long time. All very sad
hungryhungrytrachtenberg7/21/2016 1:48:58 PM
Really hoping from a statement from Nero or GW admin by COB today, even if it is just about gathering the facts.
squid7/21/2016 1:50:15 PM
If these allegations are true, it seems like somebody else should be in trouble too -- Muhammad does not look good in this article, telling the player who came to complain that it had already been handled. Or maybe someone else told Muhammad to say that. Not good at all (again, if true.)
BACCAS927/21/2016 2:02:36 PM
I think Trump just tweeted that Coach's grandfather was involved in the JFK assasination. I imagine he will not receive the Coach's endorsement.
ziik7/21/2016 2:04:01 PM
Good points about Sina and Mitola. Coach Sina no doubt has been one on one with ML. And, he's been around the block.
ML is a hard nosed boss. Most have a few digruntled ex's. (And, I realize "disgruntled is too often an employer's fall back bullcrap.)
We all want perfection from our leaders. None are.
ML has a long career, and an apparenty succesful marriage. There you go right there: he's in the top 10 percentile.
We'd like humility, etc, a la the UVa coach, too. Well, maybe we have just enough positivity with ML. We will find out soon.
Danjsport7/21/2016 2:04:42 PM
Just as you believe these accusations are patently false (and they may be), don't you think it is over the top to accuse somebody of trying to make up a s tory to get a guy fired? Aren't you making the same rush to judgment without the facts that you are asking others not to make with regard to Lonergan?
Virtually NONE of us know ANY of the truth here. You don't believe the information to be true because you don't see Lonergan that way. Others have written they wouldn't be shocked based on people who have transfered and hearing how he has interacted with players. Just like you're telling others not to rush to judgment, I'd encourage you not to push your judgment out there as fact either.
SHOFAZ+1 7/21/2016 2:07:54 PM
like every short-value investor, you feel bad for the company but it does feel good to be right. it does.
emperor is naked. let's bring some change. fast.
Since '997/21/2016 2:10:19 PM
i had spoken with a player last summer around this time and he was at his wits end. I knew mike had a problem and that the school was taking action to fix it. In all likelyhood he was making strides but it wasn't good enough. That, or a player who still wasn't happy went to the post after the initial investigation came up with not action taken. The comments about Nero and his affairs with a player and the practice tapes are completely out of line. There is no way mike survives this. What worries me is the Japan trip. Who will take over? Hajj?
hungryhungrytrachtenberg7/21/2016 2:14:19 PM
Can Freshmen transfer this late, especially with summer practices already started for Japan?
The MV7/21/2016 2:22:16 PM
Assuming he is exonerated, I don't think this will have nearly the detrimental impact upon recruiting as many of you do and here's why: I think the Lonergan "sales pitch" has always been that he's going to see that you work hard and graduate, along with helping you to become the best player you can be. He does this not by being a fake coddler but by speaking the truth. He likely tells recruits all of the time that he is going to be demanding and hard on them at times. Therefore, the players who decide to play for him ought to arrive at GW with this understanding. The player who needs to be coddled, or constantly positively reinforced, likely has not been coming to play for ML in the past. That player is the same guy who would be negatively impacted by this story. The players who want to play for ML will likely not be influenced by any of this unless any part of it turns out to be true (and even then, it might depend on which part).
To suggest that this story explains why our recruiting has been subpar since 2012 is so unbelievably misguided. For starters, why would this year's incoming class be so highly rated if this was the case? (Hint: Three four-year starters are gone, translates to available playing time)
Bo, I am very familiar with the Montgomery County incident you referred to assuming we are speaking about the same one. Without mentioning any names (no need for that), I am curious to learn why you suggest that the coach causing the teenager to commit suicide was proven to be completely baseless. What "proof" could you possibly have of this?
Lastly, I know it's been a busy week for him, but just wanted to thank Paul Manafort for taking the time to check in on this matter.
jz7/21/2016 2:22:39 PM
The more I've thought about this, the more I'm concerned with the sourcing of this article and the basic journalism standards that allow it to be published as is. I understand the need for anonymous quotes here, but, at the very least, these charges should be in the players' own words - not Kilgore's. The Nero references are particularly offensive. The idea of including that section outside of quotes and following it up with the caveat that players themselves knew the allegations were "shocking," "offensive," and had "no grounding in reality" is a pretty big red flag that Kilgore was trying to make this as salacious as possible.
Look, this is all still very serious, and I think the university needs to say SOMETHING, but I'm not sure we should buy what Kilgore and the Post are selling just yet.
BM7/21/2016 2:31:27 PM
Clearly looks like the quotes are anonymous to us, but not to the author. "Five current and past players" and staffers are mentioned.
gonzo7/21/2016 2:33:41 PM
Mike Hall is have a good tweet storm.
None of us know what went on behind closed doors but 13 transfers in 5 years from a "non-sports" school means SOMETHING wasn't right
Since '997/21/2016 2:34:39 PM
How hard is it to believe this isn't speculation? This is the second time these allegations have become known in just as many years. The first time was overlooked due to ML promising to work with Nero and change his ways. He did the exact opposite. He went to war with Nero and believed he was out to get him. He went to war with his boss! He dragged the players into it, pressured them to side with him, and even resorted to belittling one player whom Nero had particularly "coddled". The article claims that ML "toned it down" this past season, but that is likely the result of his focus being on Nero himself. I like ML personally and really want to think that he can change and still do what he loves to do, but right now he is a cancer and needs to be removed.
GW697/21/2016 2:35:53 PM
I ,like the rest of you,have no idea if the charges are true.Having said that
I wouldn't be surprised if they are. Just an intuition based on behaviors and
affect.As a caveat I have been wrong in the past making retroactive
conclusions----but I am MUCH more often correct.I hope I am wrong here.
I love GW basketball and feel awful for all of us who love it.And feel for
Lonergan whether true or not.
thinker7/21/2016 2:38:19 PM
The Post DEFINITELY would not have had an article quoting witnesses who were annonymous to the Post. The Post spoke to all 5 - you can be 100% sure of that.
Hugh Jaynus7/21/2016 2:41:12 PM
5 sources: Pellom, Dwayne Smith, Dan Guest, Cimino, and PJ
The Dude7/21/2016 2:41:13 PM
What BM said. I'd like to believe the story untrue, because its just bad for everyone if it is, bad for the kids, bad for the University, the hoops program, and us 187 fans. But I'd ask this Q, if the same exact story broke about any other Coach, would you rush to think this story, with 5 current and past players, specific claims of verbal abuse, and staffers mentioned is untrue?
As I wrote above, its very hard to believe there's no truth to the allegations, current and past players have such an axe to grind that:
1) They'd collude together and invent fictional events?
2) Risk their own futures in doing so?
3) WaPo would run with such a defamatory story if there was not corrabative evidence.
Just hard to believe its not partially or largely true. Sad to say so, ML turned around the program, and just an awful story for the University to have circulating nationally. I'd be shocked if he remains on as HC.
ziik7/21/2016 2:41:40 PM
Can someone post the full text of the story? I do not subscribe to the WashPost
Since '997/21/2016 2:47:15 PM
184.108.40.2067/21/2016 2:47:32 PM
hungryhungrytrachtenberg7/21/2016 2:49:40 PM
Guest obviously had some resentment when it came to Lonergan, even some time after leaving the program.
The Dude7/21/2016 2:51:47 PM
Hugh J, how'd you learn of the 5 sources??
McScottishPride7/21/2016 2:52:26 PM
Just got around the reading the article. Absolutely insane.
My gut says the silence means ML is gone. Lawyers are probably preparing and working with ML lawyers on a settlement agreement. My that is a wild guess.
Hopefully, we hear something from the school soon.
Since '997/21/2016 2:54:06 PM
Sorry for the double post. This site doesn't play well with phones
ziik7/21/2016 2:54:37 PM
Thanks, I asked for full text because the Post will not let me take a peek. I guess I am a known Post abuser.
danjsport7/21/2016 2:55:08 PM
I don't care who the sources are. It is clear that the sources didn't get along with ML, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. i think it's safe to say that there are employees in some companies that get along with their bosses, and others that don't. These sources clearly fall within the category of "didn't get along with their boss."
Maybe they didn't get along and have a vendetta. Maybe they didn't get along and their one-sided recollection is embelished. Maybe they didn't get along because exactly what they are saying happened did happen. Maybe ML, after acknowledging that the team asked for tapes because they needed to view his conduct said, in what he believed to be a jerking manner, "Nero needs to see the practice tapes so he can masturbate to them," and the kid took it in an entirely different way. Maybe not. I don't know.
But let's not turn this on kids to make them into liars without knowing. That is no better than making ML out to be a sexually harssing lunatic without knowing the facts.
danjsport7/21/2016 2:56:01 PM
above meant to say a "joking" manner not a "jerking" manner. freudian slip, my apologies.
Hugh Jaynus7/21/2016 2:56:06 PM
Never said I had a source...but I could put 5 names down here and you all would believe me (kinda like what the Washington Post has done)
The MV7/21/2016 3:06:45 PM
Precisely Hugh. Well done.
220.127.116.11/21/2016 3:07:01 PM
Larsen and Cinimo were the current players that came forward
GW Alum Abroad7/21/2016 3:35:26 PM
The Post would not have run the story if a) they did not have the emails and b)ML's statement did not mention the (previuosly unrevealed) university investigation in to the matter. That ML corroborated part of the story probably tipped the balance for the editors.
NYGW7/21/2016 3:45:06 PM
This silence on this issue is telling and honestly just very sad for what has been a program on the rise by all general measures. These types of moments are so much more disappointing than a string of bad seasons. I'm fully confident the program will bounce back but not a great day for GW generally, forget just basketball.
The MV7/21/2016 3:51:29 PM
Skittles, am encouraged by your response but would like to ask whether you are able to elaborate a bit. When you say that there is no truth to any of this, that seems to dismiss any grey areas that could exist. Were the examples presented in the article completely fabricated? Would Patrick Nero absolutely have no idea what Lonergan's alleged assertions were about or would never have even heard of such nonsense in the past? Like GWAA said, if Lonergan acknowledged that an issue was raised in the past, does that necessarily mean anything regarding the latest accusations?
This is more than inquiring minds want to know...this is about us diehard fans wanting to know.
18.104.22.1687/21/2016 3:52:40 PM
Garino just came out in support of Lonergan. Someone copy/paste twitter image.
Boston Colonial7/21/2016 3:55:55 PM
I have so may reactions to this story I don't know where to begin. I'm a parent of a gay son so I have no tolerance for homphobic "humor." I've also coached youth sports for two decades as a volunteer. It's a challenge to control your behavior and your tongue when you're coaching for fun. I can only imagine the pressure is magnified exponentially when your livelihood and your professional reputation is primarily derived from the performance of adolescent males who have been praised to the hilt their entire young lives. Pressure can drive you to do or say things you otherwise would not or should not do.
I have no idea whether these accusations are true. I despise anonymous quotes. I think the reporter had enough information to print his story since he confirmed the allegations with multiple sources. But having enough sources to run a story is different from saying that story is 100% true.
I was concerned when Pete Strickland left. I've been concerned when players transferred. You can look at the number of transfers as a reason for concern. However, of the 13 that left, only Pellom, Kromah, Savage and Jorgensen demostrated they could compete at the A-10 level. Pellom and Kromah were holdovers from Hobbs, so one could see why they'd leave. I think the transfers of Paris, Cartegena, Davis, White, Griffin, McCoy, Cimino and Swan are related more to ability than abuse. The program has moved up and shed less talented players.
I've been concerned with Coach Lonergan's tendency to overcoach from the sideline, call every play and point out every mistake midgame to the players. I attribute that to Lonergan having a "point guard mentality" wanting to control the game even if he is no longer playing.
But for every negative there is a positive. Mike Lonergan has run a very clean program. His players graduate. You can point to 13 transfers in 5 years which has been demonstrated to be the Division I average. I can point to 4 guys who stayed and played four years and GRADUATED. You can point to Kethan Savage leaving. I can point to Jon Kopriva staying 4 years and going to med school.You can point to Paul Jorgensen leaving. I can point to Isaiah Armwood, Tyler Cavanaugh, Mo Creek,Matt Hart and Alex Mitola coming in.
Did he say things to his players he probably shouldn't have and regrets? I cannot imagine a Division 1 coach who has not committed a similar transgression. I am not defending that reality. It needs to change. But if GW fires Lonergan, the chances are they will replace him with someone who has probably said something inappropriate to his players.
The transgender and homophobic comments piss me off. If true they are worthy of punishment. If they are first offenses, progressive discipline would call for a written reprimand maybe a suspension and training. If there is a sustained pattern of behavior that lesser measures have failed to resolve he could get fired.
But what i come back to is a coach who seems to be a decent man. He loves his family passionately He loves GW and has by and large represented GW well.He is old school. The world we live in and the rules we need to follow are changing rapidly and not everyone has caught up. He may have said things he shouldn't or been harder on his players than some of his players think was acceptable. Some players have left, but the program continued to improve and attracted better players to replace them. He seems to care about his players succeeding in life.
Should he be disciplined and counseled to change his behavior? Sure. But I wouldn't fire him.
Fkh7/21/2016 3:56:02 PM
Skittles7/21/2016 3:59:25 PM
I can't right now but trust me on this one. Sorry MV and others who asked for more.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 4:02:06 PM
MV, not to change the subject, but to answer your question. MCPS did an investigation and found the claims to be baseless either made up of whole cloth or grossly exaggerated. The coach was not fired or told he had to resign. This investigation was based on interviews with other coaches, administrators and players. There was an article in Bethesda Magazine that will confirm that the investigation found nothing. This was the case of grieving mother combining with the parents of kids who had been cut or didn't play to look for a scapegoat.
For the rest of you, this story should give you caution before you jump to conclusions.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 4:05:59 PM
Skittles sit tight. The truth will eventually come out. No need to litigate this here.
Long Suffering Fan7/21/2016 4:12:17 PM
Great job of summing up the mixed emotions of many of us, Boston Colonial. Assuming the article is true (and I believe it is, with perhaps a bit of embellishment), what I am hearing are alot of crude, offensive comments directed at some of the players and the AD, and frankly I tend to agree with the comments of Armwood and some of the others...many of the kids did need to grow a pair and toughen up. (I was lambasted by many when I accused the players of wetting themselves under pressure). And yes, I recognize that as a 64 year old male, there are many things that were jokingly said over the years cannot be said anymore (except in "red" states, of course). But in my opinion, what ML did was not a firing offense. Unfortunately, with the publication of the article in the Washington Post (today's most read sports article...how is that for publicity for the program), I think the school's hands are tied, and that the silence we are hearing are the principals negotiating a buyout of a multi-year contract that the Athletic Department can't simply just eat, but I do not see how the school can keep him under these circumstances.
danjsport7/21/2016 4:16:25 PM
Skittles- any idea when we can expect to hear something? Anything?
Angry George7/21/2016 4:23:09 PM
probably true, don't care either. This is why Trump is going to be president. #millenials #soft #wordswillneverhurtme
ziik7/21/2016 4:24:56 PM
That is a tough conclusion, LSF. I find it hard to agree, unless someone is pulling punches.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 4:25:40 PM
Approximately 40% of players transfer from a school over the course of 4 years. That means for every 13 scholarships approximately 5 will leave. Are GW's numbers so grossly out of whack?
So if you count scholarships awarded by ML (as of today - not including incoming freshmen):
Pato, Larsen, McDonald, Yuta, Roland, Goss, Kopriva - all stayed so far
Cartegna, Maragkos, Griffin, Bryant, Cimino, Swan, Savage, Jorgensen, Bull - all left
Cavanaugh, Armwood, Creek, Mitola, Sina, Hart - all stayed
So of the 22 scholarships that is 13 stayed and 9 left or 59% stayed and 41% left.
22.214.171.1247/21/2016 4:33:39 PM
Cavanaugh - transfered in
Mitola - 1 year grad transfer
Hart transfered in
Bo Knows7/21/2016 4:36:19 PM
By: SHOFAZ+1 (7/21/2016 2:07:54 PM)
"like every short-value investor, you feel bad for the company but it does feel good to be right. it does."
Really Shofaz you are going to come here and gloat ... on this???? We have some real low life assholes here. That is for sure.
Fkh7/21/2016 4:45:22 PM
Creek just posted a barrage of tweets... No one is really denying the type of verbiage
126.96.36.1997/21/2016 4:49:01 PM
danjsport7/21/2016 4:52:38 PM
FKH- I've noticed that as well. Pato and Zeke don't deny that he used, for lack of wanting to use anything other than relatively neutral adjectives "harsh" words. The question really speaks to whether those "harsh" words crossed any lines.
I have no idea. If he's talking to his players about joining a transgender team, that, at least in my mind, crosses a line. If he's telling team members that an AD should be avoided because he's had sex with players, that presents a host of problems. If he's telling them they are no good, terrible basketball players, then I don't see a problem.
But, at least I have no idea what words were actually used. Skittles appears to, and doesn't seem to think it's a problem. I wish somebody in the University would say something.
The Sons of Liberty7/21/2016 4:56:21 PM
Mo Creek @Mo_Creek 16m16 minutes agoBowie, MD
Coach Lonergan is an Intense coach who wants the best out of his basketball players..He made me better because he continued to push me
The Sons of Liberty7/21/2016 4:57:05 PM
Mo Creek @Mo_Creek 23m23 minutes agoBowie, MD
Man listen Coach Lonergan is a great coach...Haven't even read the story and I won't read it..This article is ridiculous #StopTheNonsense
Maine Colonial7/21/2016 4:57:49 PM
There must be hundreds of coaches out there who are reflecting back and cringing at all the salty and offensive language they have let fly with over the years. Are there any who haven't? Now that would be really worthy of a Washington Post investigation. Maybe they looked into it and all the ACC and Big East coaches stick to flowery prose.
The Dude7/21/2016 5:00:44 PM
ESPN, SI, WaPo, etc have a national story with 5 past and current players alleging ML verbally abusing players including the use of transgender/antigay and the food stamps comment, and some here think he'll survive this???
I believe it was LSF who wrote the school is likely already in buy out discussions, there is absolutely no way IMO he survives this. GW is not going to have its most high profile employee known as the guy who acts in this manner, no chance. IF...IF, it was just a matter of very tough verbal tactics, that would be one thing, but the combo of transgender/homosexual/food stamp quotes, that's a tenure ender. From 1 player, maybe not, 5 players, No chance, and again, sad to say it, I very much wanted to see ML take the program to new heights.
BACCAS927/21/2016 5:03:02 PM
Two Words Mother F0CKER!
The Sons of Liberty7/21/2016 5:04:33 PM
LA Fan7/21/2016 5:05:29 PM
I'm putting it at 80% or better that a press release comes out tomorrow late afternoon saying that ML and staff are no longer at the University.
I think that Florida Gulf Coast may want to keep their eyes open for a new coach.
This whole thing just sucks. I think the program will need at least 2 years for recovery time.
squid7/21/2016 5:07:19 PM
To me, there's being a dick to players, which is very bad on its own as The Dude noted, and there's saying extremely foul stuff about the boss to the players. That wouldn't fly in any other business.
And from what I've heard, the story seems to be true.
ziik7/21/2016 5:07:25 PM
I am very, very slow to believe stories like this. (Well, I also was on the defense.) But, it will be proved true or not.
Anybody here KNOW what happened? I do not think so.
NJ Colonial7/21/2016 5:10:20 PM
Dude, do you overreact to everything?! Put your energy into something constructive, like lobbying for a parking deck in downtown Westfield!
JAE7/21/2016 5:12:52 PM
Check the WaPo comments following the article.
ziik7/21/2016 5:13:41 PM
Interesting factoid: the guys who support ML, even though they are gone, sign their names, and take a public stand, when, they have no real need to say anything.
I am just starting to wonder, how much of this begins and ends with Savage,
The MV7/21/2016 5:28:38 PM
Out of curiosity, if Lonergan knew he was in the wrong, don't you think he might have taken the Rutgers job (for much more money)?
FredD7/21/2016 5:29:06 PM
I just don't see how ML survives this
1. It's in the Post, which tells me his wiggle room based on what GW Administration understands to be true is virtually nil. A Bob Knight zero tolerance performance improvement plan loaded with trip wires? I just don't see it.
2. He trashed his boss to some extent. Why would GW back ML over the guy who lifted all boats?
3. The Post should certainly name graduated players who spoke up and even transfers should have to stand behind their allegations. The alternative is probably very little transparency.
4. GW ALUMS are just not sports crazy enough to push for a process that allows him to stay. I bet enough are all too willing to believe any negative claim.
5. This just plain hurts. If it largely true it's horrendous. If it is just a few kids it's just as bad. If it's somehow not very true (which I doubt) a whole staff and ML are trashed.
6. GW can't afford the appearance of a cover up.
Alumnus7/21/2016 5:37:23 PM
FWIW, Channel 4 News is going to have a story on this in a little while. Their sports people have usual been very favorable towards Lonergan so it'll be interesting how they spin it.
BM7/21/2016 5:40:13 PM
Don't mind GW taking its time with a response. Have to explore all avenues and don't say something stupid like they did with OmarGate.
Mike K7/21/2016 5:45:13 PM
innocent until proven guilty. I hope his supporters continue to come out with attributes.
this is a very damming article for the university and it will probably take action very soon.
tk7/21/2016 5:46:14 PM
jeez. he's not going around and throwing basketballs at people, give me a break.
CT Colonial7/21/2016 5:53:26 PM
Honestly, the thing that makes this so "news-worthy" are the comments about Nero. That quote about Nero "masturbating" is so bizarre that every major media tabloid was going to pick it up.
Don't know what to think yet, and I don't want to jump to conclusions. The Rolling Stone article about Phi Psi at the University of Virginia ended up being completely false, and a bunch of innocent kids had their reputations and collegiate careers ruined as a result. Not saying this article is or isn't true, but I'm going to try not to make any sort of opinionated statement about it until more facts come to the surface.
Mike K7/21/2016 5:57:01 PM
MV, good point about taking the Rutgers gig if shit was about to come down on him or had come down.
Innocent until proven guilty
danjsport7/21/2016 5:57:14 PM
Was GW even on the front page of ESPN.com when they won the NIT? Again, regardless of truth, this hurts the program and the name of the school we all root for (and most of us went to)
dmvpiranha7/21/2016 6:02:38 PM
Mo Creek is gonna be on The Sports Junkies show tomorrow at 9am to defend ML. Whatever happens next, the one thing for sure is that ML's legacy will always be tarnished now
188.8.131.527/21/2016 6:09:49 PM
Perhaps Mo Creek should actually read the article before he goes on the program?
2013Colonial7/21/2016 6:10:39 PM
In the hypersensitive society we live in today, not a chance in hell he survives this.
squid7/21/2016 6:12:11 PM
An anon posted this, an article by Dan Guest about transferring, mentions can't handle Lonergan's demeanor. And a commenter on WaPo says he played for Lonergan at Vermont and it was the same way. All of this is circumstantial (I'm no lawyer) but it does seem like a pattern, which leads me to not be shocked. It sucks all around, in any case. http://www.gwhoops.com/default.aspx?mid=kfyuafne24
The Dude7/21/2016 6:18:46 PM
Just a hunch, but i see a bit of a generational divide, guys in their 30s and under like me and Squid et al, against some of our older posters. In 2016 the face of the hoops program just can't be uttering (or claimed to have uttered) anti LGBT things and keep his job, particularly at a University like GW. As for the Westfield parking deck NJ Colonial, I'm all for it!! Parking in in my hometown is about as ideal as parking along K street NW DC!
Bo Knows7/21/2016 6:30:32 PM
There appears to be a divide on the team between those players who have gone public and those who remain anonymous. In the absence of other facts, I will always take the word of those who want to sign their name to it over those who won't.
I will repeat that the paticular language cited just doesn't fit with the ML I know. I hope that I am right.You can never say never because I wasn't there but I would have bet huge sums of money that something like this would not happen at GW at least under ML's watch.
This story is an absolute shame for everyone which I why I reacted to Shofaz +1 the way I did. There will be no winners here no matter what the result. I am sick to my stomach over this and pray that somehow this is shown not to be true.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 6:46:26 PM
Lonergan's attorney, Scott Tompsett, provided this statement to ESPN on behalf of the coach on Thursday afternoon:
"The Washington Post article is full of lies and half-truths. For example, GWU administrators did not 'address concerns' with Coach Lonergan last year. Rather, they looked into allegations and after a thorough investigation, concluded that Coach Lonergan had not violated University policy and that no further action would be taken.
"The fact of the matter is that the anonymous accusations are not new and they are not true.
"Coach Lonergan has a well-earned reputation in the college basketball world as a coach who runs his program with integrity and respect. He has always been a champion of diversity and inclusion. Coach Lonergan celebrates those values. Coach Lonergan is proud of his team and its accomplishments both on and off the court. He will aggressively defend himself and his program against false and defamatory accusations."
NJ Colonial7/21/2016 6:50:00 PM
Thanks BC - and Bo.
ziik7/21/2016 6:54:17 PM
Lonergan's attorney, Scott Tompsett, provided this statement to ESPN on behalf of the coach on Thursday afternoon:
"The Washington Post article is full of lies and half-truths. For example, GWU administrators did not 'address concerns' with Coach Lonergan last year. Rather, they looked into allegations and after a thorough investigation, concluded that Coach Lonergan had not violated University policy and that no further action would be taken.
"The fact of the matter is that the anonymous accusations are not new and they are not true.
"Coach Lonergan has a well-earned reputation in the college basketball world as a coach who runs his program with integrity and respect. He has always been a champion of diversity and inclusion. Coach Lonergan celebrates those values. Coach Lonergan is proud of his team and its accomplishments both on and off the court. He will aggressively defend himself and his program against false and defamatory accusations."
The Post reported that allegations of abuse against Lonergan during the 2014-15 season prompted a meeting between the coach and
Mentzinger7/21/2016 7:05:08 PM
Hey fellas! Just back from 3 days of camping. Anything going on?
Bigfan7/21/2016 7:12:25 PM
Something in me said to look on GW hoops earlier than usual today. But decided not to, since wanted to pretend was interested in work and other things in life.
I saw it in my YAHOO feed. Either way, we are fucked, as many posters note.
The story may or may not be true, or may have a kernel of truth and stretched to fit the narrative. This is a typical Washington Post story in that regard, except most are back up by on the record reporting.
Why do they only write about us to take the program down? This is twice in two coaches. Are we that bad a program (all of our four year players under Lonergan graduate, I believe).
As for this guy being a journalist, he must be a hack sportswriter. No one would put out such a biased, piece of shit "article". Absolutely no one is quoted in Lonergan's defense.
Is it that hard to find Garino? Of course, despite his summer league heroics, he is invisible to the Post, so maybe. Hard to find Mo Creek? Isaiah Armwood?
Why are former players not named? Don't see how anonymity should be granted in that case. Does that even fit the Post's own rules for anonymous sources. (By the way, truly believe they exist, don't know why they weren't named.) Why couldn't they push former players? What about their parents? What are their reasons for remaining anonymous?
Anonymous sources are critical for reporting sometimes. People don't understand that. But these are specific cases where people have something to lose or are not authorized. How does a former player fit such criteria? No parent wants to talk? If someone feels their kid is slighted, they will talk.
There are all sorts of politically correct buzzwords here. And did he make an offhand joke that Nero was jerking off over the tapes? That prompts a Title IX investigation? Don''t know about the other stuff, but it hardly sounds life and death from someone raised in a different era than millennials. But maybe people are right. It is terrible. How do we know? What did he say, exept for food stamps, which isn't a firing offense.
Back to flaws in the story and one uses that term quite correctly. Maybe there is something I don't know about Nero.
But did the writer, say searching his own paper from just a few days ago, or anyone with an IQ above the level of warm toast, note that Nero's lawyer is famous a sexual harassment lawyer. Believe just a few days ago, she was quoted in the Roger Ailes case.
This was just on Channel 4. Lonergan's lawyer says the article had falsehoods and half-truths and there was no investigation. How did the Post miss this?
Channel 4 was fairly and properly done,citing the allegations and the response.
Interestingly, Jim Vance wondered if it was a millennial thing "because coaches are rough on you."
It does have the smell as one Post commentor said, of these young people who are such special snowflakes that they need a safe space.
Numerous people here defended Bobby Knight, who CHOKED people, but there is outrage over the tenor of some alleged comments. Want to see direct quotes, really preferably with a name attached to believe it.
But maybe it is a huge problem. Get worried when someone rock-solid like BM says he isn't surprised.
Why as one poster aptly noted, did Mitola have his brother come to the program as a WALK On,if Lonergan is such a horrible madman?
And like the last Post hatchet job, what about our players graduating. Our having half the A 10 All Academic team. One team, half the the academic honors. What about Tyler graduating in economics? What about Alex Mitola, pursuing a masters in international trade?
All hell can break loose at Maryland, including sleazy assistants and Turgeon is a god to the Post. John Thompson, Sr. who one is willing to bet was far worse to his players, can do no wrong. Nor can Georgetown or Maryland ever. But GW is picked on with a half-assed article about someone's livelihood.
Hey, if you have the goods, fire away. I will personally applaud it. But don't put out a biased, innuendo.
Is this a tempest in a teapot? Or where there is smoke there is fire? It's probably both. Let's face it, he is a great coach in terms of program standards. And not many programs can point to the moral and academic type of players we have. We win with real students.
Never believe in shooting the messenger. But this isn't a message; so far, it is a one-sided narrative.
Is this a tempest in a teapot? Or where there's smoke there's fire, as many sensibly point out? Right now, it seems like probably both.
But who the fuck knows from the article? That's the problem.
Section 2097/21/2016 7:17:51 PM
As a season ticket holder I'm deeply troubled and confused. I don't know what to believe. The program is in trouble. There should be an independent investigation.
Thomas7/21/2016 7:18:18 PM
The fact that a number of guys who were recruited and finished their college careers under Mike Lonergan(Larsen, McDonald, Armwood, Creek, Cavanaugh, Garino) are showing various signs of support for him on social media is very good for ML. It may not save his job because the cat is out of the bag!!! His alleged highly offensive(homophobic, classism) quotes about his own A.D. and players are in the atmosphere now, it's going to be hard for him to live this down. I understand the 'Innocent Until Proven Guilty' sentiment, but how can anyone look at ML the same way again if he's coaching at GW next season??
ziik7/21/2016 7:26:22 PM
I was more than willing to accept the pap that Savage was transferring to get more PG PT. But, this story seems, in my view, to ask more questions about him, and whether he was trouble.
Section 2097/21/2016 7:30:07 PM
Adam Kilgore is no amateur. If he's reporting this, there's something here probably. There's an old saying, if it sounds bad, its probably worse. There's more to this probably, that hasn't come out. I hope not, but I'm worried for the program.
GW267/21/2016 7:30:49 PM
The only troubling part to me is the Nero/ML relationship and the quotes in there. Now I could see him joking in practice about something like this but ML has to be careful in today age as anything could be misconstruted. Nero is a great AD and so something is wrong there that needs to be fixed.
As others have alluded to, only 2 of the players who transferred have gone on to A10 programs or higher (KS, PJ) - all the others for the most part didn't belong in D1. We'd be calling for ML's head regardless if these players stayed. This is a lot of sour grapes. You keep ML unless these accusations come out as factual. You give him sensitivity training and if anything happens again, he's out. We'll see what happens but I think he'll survive this.
FredD7/21/2016 7:44:27 PM
Generational riptide could explain the transgender remark uproar and verbal abuse. Think about all the things that could said about LGTB folk 5 years ago in an office setting that would be an agreed upon firing offense now. As for verbal abuse that has been slower to change but in nearly all situations it's considered bullying and abuse. The Nero sex thing? A really poor joke that was overheard? So bizarre. Fact is as a professional you ideally would grow and change, but at very least recognize words slang and insults that were once ok are now a fireable offense.
Let's say all the comments are fully vetted and ML has good explanations How in this hot take world does it matter? The top Google search will be the article. It will be the first and last word most people see
LA Fan7/21/2016 7:55:32 PM
Section 209 - I have no doubt that Kilgore got direct statements from multiple players. The question is did these players all lie to Kilgore in an attempt to throw Lonergan under the bus? Perhaps we will never know. In some of these situations it could just come down to one person's word vs. the other's.
This whole thing sucks because I don't see a way out of it. Do all of the current players sign a letter in support of ML? Is that even enough to save his job at this point? How do ML and Nero even have a working relationship going forward?
I don't see any other way but to let him go and get a new coach to rebuild the program. I like ML and wish that he could stay, but it just might not be possible given what has been put out there today.
Bigfan7/21/2016 7:57:17 PM
Don't know Adam Kilgore or his reputation from Adam, so to speak.
And maybe more shoes will drop.
But it is not clear in the article, which no matter where the evidence leads, as written now is a highly unprofessional piece of shit hatchet job that makes the story fit the narrative, excluding any positive details about Lonergan.
And it is always shameful to do that, but particularly to do this with someone else's livelihood.
Anyone who cared anything about journalism or the truth would have looked far further for sources, like our former players taking to Twitter, gotten something on the record (not one person is!) and presented a balanced picture with solid evidence.
Thomas7/21/2016 8:13:54 PM
Bo Knows, I have a hard time believing that quotes like "Your Son Will Always Be On Food Stamps"/ "You Should Transfer To A Transgender League"/ "Nero Requested Practice Tapes So He Could Masturbate While Viewing Them In His Office" is just something that was made up by players who are out to get ML. I understand that a fiery coach like ML(who doesn't pull any punches) will have a number of disgruntled former and current players, but those are some very damning quotes attributed to ML, I tend to believe he said them, but he didn't think that anyone would snitch like this.
But in ML's defense, nobody is putting a name to their quotes, there is no video/audio(like in Mike Rice's case) exposing ML and it's been mostly reserves/out-of-the-rotation guys who have transferred out of GW.
Colonial'137/21/2016 8:17:07 PM
I feel like the problem is Lonergan just is socially awkward and thought his guys were all on the same team as him and could confide in them / joke with his issues about Nero . If he came up to me and said to watch out because Nero masturbates to our practice tapes I would die laughing like I did when first reading the article. These "anonymous players" are probably just butt-hurt they didnt get minutes and are taking things out of context, which is really dispicable and just a bitch move to ruin someones career. These players sound way too sensitive, come on were playing basketball at the D-1 level how did they even make it to this level if they are ones to go behind the coaches and teams backs to report this to the fucking Post, come on man up. And this is coming from a 25 year old, who also did athletics. My highschool swim coach said worse shit than this.
Hoopstar237/21/2016 8:22:19 PM
Look at the tweets from Pato, Mo, and Zeek that were retweeted by multiple other players. The players know these allegations are all false and the truth will come out. These players put their names to their words. No anonymous lies.
GW Alum Abroad7/21/2016 8:23:17 PM
ML absolutely needs a new lawyer (or his lawyer needs a pr expert). That statement is waaaaaay too long and detailed for a mere denial. It will do nothing to calm the mob or clear this matter up.
On the other hand, maybe people are sufficiently distracted by events in Cleveland, Turkey, So. Florida and Rio to not notice this.
184.108.40.2067/21/2016 8:28:07 PM
2016 D1 Transfers= 700
Wow there must be alot of asshole coaches out there.
NewGWFan7/21/2016 8:33:42 PM
Based on the statement from the university and the fact there hasn't been some sort of joint statement. I imagine they will suspend him until the investigation is complete.
Class of 137/21/2016 8:50:14 PM
Myron Medcalf's article on ESPN adds a very interesting element to this IMO. His piece features expanded quotes and testimony from one of the players, but none of the others. It also seems to imply that ESPN made contact with this player today after the Post's story was released. That would make you think that either a) this player had tried to push this story to ESPN at an earlier time, they didn't bite and then after the Post's story they decided to talk to the person, or, b) this player has been reaching out to ESPN today saying that I'll give you some new quotes if you want them.
After seeing the ESPN article I am willing to consider it a possibility that the Post article was mostly provided by one former player who's grinding the ax. I'm not saying that that necessarily changes the likelihood of the articles veracity, or that it should change how anyone feels about the allegations, but IMO this now feels like a story in which one person provided the Nero narrative knowing its effectiveness and a few other guys confirmed verbal abuse.
Long Suffering Fan7/21/2016 8:51:46 PM
Couple of things come to mind. Lawyer for ML is not exactly an objective source of information. Likewise, those supporting ML...Creek, Garino, Armwood, etc, were the darlings of the program and I suspect treated differently than those who were more in the nature of recruiting mistakes. Further, I wonder why now for this story? I suspect that one, perhaps 2 of the recent transfers, may have gone to the reporter and gave him enought to develop the story, namely seeking out others for comments. Can't believe players who are long gone have all of a sudden came forward to report the goings on. Perhaps what gives this story more credence is that unlike the UVa rape story, which was based upon the report of one person (the alleged victim), many have come forward to accuse the coach, and there is somewhat of a documented history. Further, I would think that there is some truth to the falling out between ML and Nero or otherwise Nero would have already released a strong statement declaring this to be hogwash. Having said that, I continue to believe that not withstanding the lack of appropriateness of the comments, I don't believe that this is a firing offense and hopes he stays on. Or to put it another way...I don't know if I can go back to 20 loss seasons, playing home games before 1500 fans, losing to the likes of Longwood or having to play on the first day o fthe A-10 tournament. And yes, I do think that this may be the end of ML at GW and no, I don't think it will be in the next day or 2 because at least from what we have read so far, as bad as the comments were, I don't know that it is a firing offense, and this gray area may make negotiating a buyout that much more difficult, as the program really cannot afford to pay 2 coaches for the next several years.
The Dude7/21/2016 8:58:13 PM
Thomas, as always ....SPOT on.
Bigfan7/21/2016 9:02:04 PM
So far, in the immortal words of Wendy' s spokesman Clara Peller: "where' s the beef?"
Bo Knows7/21/2016 9:07:43 PM
Thomas, this isn't ML's first rodeo - he's been a coach for a long time and understands the environment and all the dos and donts. This reeks of an agenda given that no player has come forward publically. The stated reason - they are afraid of retribution. From whom if they are telling the truth? So they want to hide in the shadows and take public shots at a man's livelihood and reputation. And for that they get the presumption of telling the truth about every aspect and every statement? Sorry I'm not buying it yet without a whole lot more.
Long Suffering Fan7/21/2016 9:13:36 PM
Noticed this line in the Hatchet article... "the university is bringing in outside counsel to assist in its investigation". This means a couple of things...don't look for anything to happen in the immediate future. Investigation needs to play its course. (The university is of course absolutely correct in investigating). It could also mean that the university is building its case...if it is going to fire Lonergan for cause (and thereby owe him nothing on his contract), or even negotiate o nominal payout (1 year?), they better have the facts to back them up.
dmvpiranha7/21/2016 9:18:07 PM
Could it be possible that ML treated players who were not large contributors to the team poorly to get them to transfer in order to free up scholarships? You can only have so many "developing projects" before too many scholarships are taken up. I don't know, just a crazy thought maybe
GW Alum Abroad7/21/2016 9:23:19 PM
The full statement, as per The Hatchet (note: it is a far cry from "we stand by our employee"):
“As reported today by the Washington Post, the George Washington University is undertaking a Title IX review of allegations against men’s basketball coach Mike Lonergan,” a university spokesman told the Hatchet in an emailed statement Wednesday. “Some of the reported allegations go beyond the scope of Title IX, and the university is bringing in outside counsel to assist in its investigation. The university expects full cooperation and will not tolerate retaliation during the course of the investigation. We will also continue to inform the student-athletes on our men’s basketball team of the university’s support and of the resources available to them.”
The Other MG7/21/2016 9:23:58 PM
I feel like I've been punched in the stomach, and can't get my breath back. No comment about what could and couldn't be true, or the accusers' charges until much more comes out. Almost surreal.
SW7/21/2016 9:42:58 PM
That ESPN story is god awful, aside for the explanation for why ML hates Nero. That ESPN story is about half cribbed from Kilgore's Post story.
220.127.116.117/21/2016 10:00:58 PM
What the ESPN "article" does do is paint a timeline of the source's departure from GW. Apparently it was shortly after Lonergan was extended, after a successful 2013-2014. So anybody close to the situation can figure out who the source likely is.
I'm not sure if that was intentional or not, but its not really smart on ESPN's part.
Free Quebec7/21/2016 10:01:55 PM
I do have one other queston - was Nero out of the closet? If not, then that means the player who brought this to the Post was willing to out Nero against his will in order to get this story out there. That's kind of wrong, too. Doesn't excuse ML from the allegations, but if Nero wasn't out, then it sucks that the player chose to force him out and brings up some interesting questions about journalistic ehtics (it's a grey area about whether it's right to out someone).
I have a lot of sympathy for Nero in this sitaution. First, he was either outed agianst his will or had a newspaper print sexual jokes about which he was the butt of the jokes. Either way, that really stinks for him. Second, Nero is an awkward position with the charges. There are few specifics directed at any players to buttress the abuse claim, so most of the article centers on ML's comments about Nero. The complaint wasn't brought by Nero - it was brought by a player who felt mistreated by ML - so if you are Nero how do you deal with this? Do you take action against ML for making jokes about you and risk having it be said that you had a thin skin or coudn't take a joke? Do you simply let the Title IX compliance officer decide and then look in the paper like you did nothing while your subordinate treated you poorly?
And what about now - you are kind of forced to address this. You could say you found no credible evidence that it's true, in which case most people will just think you are burying it for the sake of wins. Or you could admit that the coach you hired has been treating you like this, which means publicly acknowledging something embarrassing that is not your fault.
Basically, Nero is in a bad place here for no reason of his own making. Really feel for the guy.
18.104.22.1687/21/2016 10:02:09 PM
This makes no sense. ML can be direct, sure. But he would never say the things attributed to him. First, he's not stupid and he is careful with how the program is portrayed. Second, that's simply not how he speaks in any context. Please hold your judgement until the verifiable truth is revealed.
GW Alum Abroad7/21/2016 10:04:37 PM
200+ posts in less that 12 hours? That officially makes this a shitstorm, no?
Bo Knows7/21/2016 10:12:43 PM
Hopefully, we will all wake up tomorrow and find out this was all a bad dream or we find out ML cut Kilgore from some team :-).
Thomas7/21/2016 10:32:57 PM
I've checked the twitters of some guys(Savage, Darian Bryant, Dwayne Smith, Lasan Kromah, Paul Jorgenson, Dave Pellom, Tony Taylor) who transferred from GW under ML or were holdovers from Hobbs who played for him, and none of them have tweeted about this story. I'm assuming that 1 or more of the players I listed are among the 5 guys who were quoted anonymously. I was also interested to see what Mike Hall had to say about this because he's a guy who doesn't hold back when speaking about GW and other subjects, but his twitter is now on private.
ELJ7/21/2016 11:14:27 PM
Whole thing makes me wish the AD at the time had agreed to Joe McKeown's terms to be seriously considered for the opening as men's coach that existed a few years before Joe left for Northwestern. Excellent coach and squeaky clean.
Tim47/21/2016 11:24:30 PM
Am with FQ. Awful for Nero. Unclear how both can stay and Nero has done nothing wrong.
For ML to stay, Nero comments either need to be not true or exaggerated and old and something they've resolved
Maine Colonial7/21/2016 11:24:47 PM
If ML needs counseling then by all means he should have to undergo it to keep his job. But I don't understand why players who transferred out should be quoted anonymously when ML and GW can't possibly retaliate against them because they are already gone. And I certainly hope the Washington Post is calling players who transferred out of Maryland and Georgetown to see if their coaches used similar off color language. When Coach K is turning purple and screaming at the refs for missing a call is he using G rated language? I think not.
The Dude7/21/2016 11:29:57 PM
Of all of the allegations in the various pieces, this one I find the most damning:
One former member of the George Washington basketball staff said, "A lot of kids transfer because they have delusions of grandeur. Nobody transferred from GW with delusions of grandeur. They just transferred because they hated him. They couldn't stand another second of him."
A former staff member is just making that up? Find that hard to believe. We've been sold by a few here this "ho-hum, lots of transfers everywhere" but any discerning/non ML cheerleading GW fan is well aware, we've had a specific and major problem with multiple player-Head Coach relations and that obviously led to several key players transfering, even worse I believe it kept others from picking the school the past 3 recruiting years. Long before today's reports that was clear.
Terrible day for GW, just terrible. Worse for the country though, Donald Trump is the official nominee of one of our 2 major parties. The sky hasn't entirely fallen on GW, perhaps on the GOP. One of the 2 shall rise again.
Bo Knows7/21/2016 11:45:14 PM
Gee Dude I wonder what possible FORMER staff member that could be ... and if you know who I am talking about you would know his reputation for the truth isn't exactly all that.
Bo Knows7/22/2016 12:01:55 AM
You knew it was just a matter of time before the Dude showed his true #ignore nature... All the while telling us here ad nauseum that ML couldn't recruit and that it was great these players transferred because it was clear they couldn't play at GW, now its "we've had a specific and major problem with multiple player-Head Coach relations and that obviously led to several key players transfering, even worse I believe it kept others from picking the school the past 3 recruiting years."Dude who exactly are those several key players (meaning at least three)? Would one of them be Paul Jorgensen who you roundly trashed here to a low life degree?
I swear it is physical impossibility to be a bigger clown than the Dude.
Bigfan7/22/2016 12:41:51 AM
Who is the source who left?
Would think Strickland, whose departure was abrupt, but don't know. Who else has left the staff who would be a suspect.
And no problem speculating on IDs of former players.Who are the likely candidates
If they have left the program, they have no reason to challenge a man's livelihood anonymously. Stand up and say it. And if they don't want to say it, don't they have parents who are unafraid to stand up for their kid?
Fully recognize that there may be a damning tape a la Watergate or something we don't know. If so, go to it. Great story. Do wonder, though, like a recent poster, why that never happens with Maryland and Georgetown basketball.
But absent proof of that, the anonymity given or the gravity of unsproven allegations should not resemble Watergate.
hmm7/22/2016 12:50:01 AM
Free Quebec7/22/2016 1:04:53 AM
One curious thing is the direction of the Former GW basketball staff member. It didn't say a former assistant to Lonergan, just that it's someone who once was on the staff for GW. That means it could just as easily be a Hobbs loyalist who has been grinding an axe from the day ML was hired, like Brian Ellerbee or Roland Houston. Doesn't mean it's wrong false or inflated, but he choice of description is vague enough that we can't just assume it's someone like Strickland.
22.214.171.1247/22/2016 1:15:02 AM
As a VCU fan, I hope this destroys your program.
Skittles7/22/2016 6:25:56 AM
Strickland left to be with family end of story.
Maine Colonial7/22/2016 6:33:46 AM
The Washington Post has a weak follow up mentioning the GW investigation and bringing in outside counsel. The Post resorts to quoting Kilgore's sections about Nero but really doesn't add anything. The article also doesn't mention the former players who have expressed support for Lonergan. And there's no obvious sidebar on whether the majority of college head basketball and football head coaches exhibit similar behavior at practices and during games. So there's really no attempt to be even-handed. So in publishing the article Kilgore, a Syracuse alum and unfortunately a Mainer, and the Post seem intent on trying to crush both Lonergan and Nero at the same time. Unless new information comes out, I think it's going to blow over and Lonergan is going to have to get some counseling, which is probably a good thing for the long term health of the program as well as his mental health. I would guess the vast majority of college coaches could use it. The good news is there are no accusations of academic dishonesty like at UNC or the crap that was being pulled at Syracuse under Boeheim's watch. And Lonergan wasn't having sex with waitresses on pool tables a la Pitino. Somehow those coaches survived and I think Lonergan will too. This would be a great time for Lonergan and Nero to leave the country and fly to Japan to work things out, let the dust settle and figure out how to kick ass this season and make the NCAA tournament which would be the ultimate revenge. Raise High.
Let's go!7/22/2016 6:39:39 AM
I think ML only acted like this towards the guys who never got playing time or guys who didn't mesh well with the team and who he wanted gone. The big 3 (Pato, Larsen and Mcdonald) don't look like they were emotionally scarred and always seemed like they were enjoying it out there on the floor and off the floor. Even Yuta seems to be developing well under him.
Colonial NY7/22/2016 6:40:23 AM
What Skittles said about Strickland fits with what I had heard soon after he left - mainly that Strickland just didn't want to put in the travel time and hours away from family needed to recruit so he and the school agreed it was best for him to retire.
Tuna Can7/22/2016 7:41:44 AM
Joining FQ in unlerking.... I wanted to make a small point here that, we may be overlooking an outcomee path here if you take a few things into consideration. First, Kilgore treated the situation and the school on the par of Penn State and Paterno. If you read through the article and you observe the program, it is easy to understand that the university had been informed of issues and had reacted (rather than ignored and/or covered up as in the Penn State case).
If, indeed, this is the case and Nero also was involved in the "solutions" and personal couseling, etc., possibly Nero and the school will come off looking like they traveled a route of redemption and recovery of the situtation for the best of those at the university and for those involved.
No one will ever suggest that ML was or has becomee an easy coach for whom to play. It may hawever work out that the university and Nero were quietly out ahead of this and thus give them the option to look bigger than the Washington Post and its reporting.
From what I read in the Post, the university took actions similar to putting body cameras of police. Two things happen: (1) stuff that you heard was happening tends to suddenly become less reported (because they people acting in the wrong manner choose not to); and (2) you will see some stuff that you really do have to take action on and action is called for and taken. I suspect, in Lonergan's case, both outcomes recently have been true and that's what can help everyone involved heal who is still here.
Some folks spent some time looking at the Rutgers coaching situation in the past year. I can't help but think that Lonergan, the university and AD Nero are invested in finding a positive outcome I am hoping that this is true. An independent set of eyes may actually find this to be true and not sensationalise the process. Hypothetically, if this were the case, ML would have to come clean with an apology to those that he has hurt.
Of course, I could hit enter on this post and read that Lonergan has been fired.... this is speculation on my part and hopeful, at that. My only hope is that much of this has already been gamed out by the university ahead of this article and news slam.
Florida Colonial7/22/2016 7:56:22 AM
MH, judging him as guilty based on a one sided article. It may be true, but we must give everyone involved an opportunity to talk before we convict people and effect their lives for ever.
Let the process play out
FredD7/22/2016 8:24:40 AM
This morning. Anonymous sources is de reguiere, but still really wrong in this instance. How could ML retaliate? Why would he? BTW Feinstein stated the allegations were investigated and if this is true finding cause for firing is tough. He also said the use of anonymous sources adds to the appearance that the investigation was a whitewash which just doesn't fit with Knapp's ambivalence about college athletics
Hugh Jaynus7/22/2016 8:27:25 AM
Former member of GW staff...Hobbs maybe. Kilgore is so vague in describing who the information is coming from. Where in the article does he say that the staff member was under Lonergan. Its terrible journalism that the Washington Post notoriously prints day after day that most people buy into because it is in printing. Take a step back, and let everything play out.
Maine Colonial7/22/2016 8:36:32 AM
If this were last spring, GW might want to start fresh with a new coach. But the season is beginning and unless something really heinous is discovered, why would GW make a change now? Mike will definitely be put on notice to take it easier and cut the borderline language and he will agree to counseling and more supervision, which is probably what essentially all football and basketball coaches need. If the rules are changing then the NCAA should look at all schools and not just a few schools.
126.96.36.1997/22/2016 8:42:04 AM
Being a college athlete for 3 years now, I have never heard of a fellow NCAA player experience a coach who hasn't given criticism that could be misconstrued as offensive. The article presents no concrete criticisms that are deserving of this defacing story. I have a question that no one has asked, What do we define as emotionally and verbally abusive? Because every coach in the NCAA could be guilty of such a loosely defined phrase. It is not right to claim a coach as verbally and emotionally offensive if all we know is about 3-4 complaints from anonymous players. Under thier anonymity, how can Lonergan stand a chance against this story? We don't know if they had other factors in thier feelings towards Lonergan (lack of playing time, not starting, etc.). To accept this story at its face value is ignorant and malignant to the program.
188.8.131.527/22/2016 8:44:49 AM
From what I understand the heinous sexual things he has said about the AD go way beyond what was stated in the article. Hopefully these "independent investigators" will uncover the truth. He should not be coaching anyone period and should seek help. The assistant coaches just stood by and let it happen, as did the school. It took guts for the kids to come forward, especially the one(s) who went to Nero and the school.
gonzo7/22/2016 8:46:34 AM
FQ is 100% correct (as always). It's still willing to listen, wait this thing out. I'm still very shaken, especially regarding the comments regarding Nero. I would never support -- or be friends with -- anyone who would make a "poor joke overheard" like that. It's absolutely disgusting if remotely true, especially for someone who is gay as myself. But, it is one account, with some additional sourcing throught to varying degrees.
Tough, domineering coaching? I can take that. Par of the course. Sour grapes for being forced out -- sure, i can understand that too and add in the appropriate grain of salt.
But for people saying here and elsewhere "he would never say those things"--how can you be so certain? I wish I could have so much blind faith and trust in people. Will let this play out a bit before renewing my season tickets.
GWAlum20017/22/2016 8:52:41 AM
Feinstien said that Savage walked into ML's office and said, "I need to go somewhere I can play my NBA position". I know we all thought that was the reason, but had not heard it put that way.
Hugh Jaynus7/22/2016 9:01:33 AM
It took guts for Nero to tell these kids to come up with these stories to drive ML out. Struggle of power and Nero seemed to have had enough and what else but public defamation.
Chet7/22/2016 9:15:05 AM
Mo Creek on Sports Junkies now
BM7/22/2016 9:20:13 AM
Some of these mental contortions to try to get the story to go away are, say, interesting. Seems like a well-researched and corroborated article. Doesn't matter if the sources were disgruntled if he actually said what five people claim (and none of the tweeting players deny).
danjsport7/22/2016 9:34:03 AM
Bo knows- you said this "Thomas, this isn't ML's first rodeo - he's been a coach for a long time and understands the environment and all the dos and donts. This reeks of an agenda given that no player has come forward publically. The stated reason - they are afraid of retribution. From whom if they are telling the truth? So they want to hide in the shadows and take public shots at a man's livelihood and reputation. And for that they get the presumption of telling the truth about every aspect and every statement? Sorry I'm not buying it yet without a whole lot more."
It's a post that bothers me. I am certain that you are not naive enough to understand that, even if true, retribution could be bad. This could come in many forms. One, it could come from the current school the kid is playing at, where the coach takes the side of the "other coach" and diminishes playing time. Two, it could come in the form of loss of other baksetball opportunities after college--when a player is on the bubble and one has spoken out about a former coach and another hasn't, which player is going to go? And that is before we get into teammates or any other issues. BUt then there's, ya know, "real life." Are you saying that IF this was Kethan, AND Kethan attached his name to it, you would all of a suddenly believe it, not call it agenda driven, and stop calling the student a liar? Probably not. So he'd have to deal with people calling him, an actual person, a liar. And then there's the whole fact that he might need a job that is not basketball at some point, and wouldn't want his name associated with bad-mouthing a former boss (even if the former boss was wrong). Because, again, if a boss has to choose between hiring somebody that has bad-mouthed his previous boss, and somebody that hasn't, who is going to go?
I know you know this. I know you want to believe ML's side. And, again, I'm not taking any side here because I wasn't there fore one-on-one meetings that allegedly included these types of conversations, and I don't know enough about anybody involved to establish an opinion. But I know enough to know that just because the quotes are from an "anonymous" source is not sufficient to call them lies. Particularly when the question is "well, why do they have anything to fear if what they are saying is true" is the response.
To me, neither side should get the "presumption of truth." The administration, which has apparently conducted an investigation in the past, is going to conduct another one. This leads me to believe that there are NEW issues raised that hadn't been previously investigated (otherwise, the university would have simply put out a release stating that the issues had already been investigated or released the results of the investigation (or both)). I'll wait until the facts come out and, until then, will just be sad that this has happened to the program I root for.
Rich Maier7/22/2016 9:34:28 AM
This may be ML's last rodeo. We just don't know.
Fkh7/22/2016 9:37:38 AM
Summary on no creek interview please
Neil7/22/2016 9:38:07 AM
ML and Nero have their own personal feud. This is where this is all coming from. Mike needs to keep his mouth shut and worry about winning
danjsport7/22/2016 9:38:55 AM
BM- that's a good point that I think is overlooked. The players that are publicly supporting Lonergan are not saying "he didn't say these things." They are saying "things he said didn't bother me and made me a better player."
CT Colonial7/22/2016 10:05:19 AM
Interested to see if this affects our current incoming freshmen/players.
Mentzinger7/22/2016 10:24:47 AM
1) There is nothing illegal or automatically actionable in the things ML is alleged to have said, and there are many PR responses still on the table including full fire.
2) What makes it an issue are the questions of leadership and how ML conducts himself as a public representative of the university and its student-athletes, as well as allegations of a potential cover-up.
3) Regardless of sketchy sourcing and transparently impure motives (how do former players get anonymity over fear of reprisals?), if the things that were said are corroborated, the university should put him on an action plan, at a minimum. But with the nastiness of the ML-PN relationship exposed, one wonders who will grant ML that extra leeway (see #5). You get the feeling this is a showdown at high noon and one of them has to go.
4) Whether this is why kids have transferred, and why recruits "don't come to GW" is total speculation. "Coaching style" is different everywhere and social norms are changing (see Paterno). Personally, I don't buy it. ML is a hardass? He says stupid and insensitive things? OK. Bobby Knight wouldn't have been as successful as he was on the court or in the living rooms of recruits' families if he wasn't Bobby Knight. Recruits still go to Pitino ... is that because of, or despite, the hookers?
ML needs to come with a better, more contrite and less defensive response than what his lawyer issued, about being an intense guy who has said hurtful things which he deeply regrets.
5) The real issue is how can ML and PN go on as a functioning team, given this kind of sensational, publicly-aired personal mistrust. Can they go on? If the deeds were supposed to have occured two seasons ago, this may be less of an issue, since ML just posted a school record for wins in a season, capped by an NIT championship and, as the saying goes, winning cures all ills. Maybe PN and ML have already agreed to keep the personal animosity shelved if they both merely continue to excel at their jobs.
As a PS, I noticed last week ML posted photos of him with KH, MJ and other greats from GW Basketball's past, focusing on "the GW family." Whether this was a clever PR bit in advance of a shitstorm or authentic weaving together of past and present coaches at GW (all of whom left in their own blaze of inglorious disclosures ... except MJ, who would step in it later), I think ML is only the latest victim in a series of doing things old school in a gotcha media environment that's always looking for a sensational story (especially, for some reason, if it involves GW athletics).
The MV7/22/2016 11:07:50 AM
So my initial reaction to the story was that ML should not be fired for this (let's asume that everything that has been reported is true) and I received some immediate pushback on this point. Craig Martinez, who I don't think is an attorney (at least he has never identified himself as one, nor am I for that matter), disagreed citing sexual harassment is a fireable offense. Upon reading this, I gave some thought as to whether what we're talking about here constitutes sexual harassment. First, let's get a few infractions out of the way (this entire post again assumes that everything reported is true, which of course it may not be):
1) Guilty of Bad Judgment Regarding Remarks Directed At Players: This is a given. The language, the insults, the attempts at humor...all need to be toned down if not eliminated. The fact that plenty of other coaches are likely to be equally as guilty is irrelevant here...at least until their former players start filing complaints.
2) Physical Abuse: None reported. As was stated, Bob Knight (choking a player) kept his job, Mike Rice did not. I hope we can agree that their actions were worse than these allegations.
3) Weird Behavior: This is something that hasn't been discussed here and is a big concern of mine. If ML was badmouthing Nero to his players, why on earth was he doing this? To be funny? To blow off some steam? If a player hears his coach make a homosexual joke or reference about his boss, how can that possibly be perceived as anything outside of unusual? The concerns about future recruiting have less to do with how ML treats his players (I addressed that in another thread but to simplify, the kind of player who wants to get better and can handle criticism for his own good isn't going to be swayed by this story, IMO) but more to do with would I as a player want to play for a coach who is making these kinds of remarks about his own AD to his players? This is just weird.
4) Sexual Harassment: I'm not sure it does, but let's assume for argument's sake that the allegations fall under the umbrella of sexual harassment. Don't you have to consider the degree in which a crime is being committed? Does a motorist who accidentally kills a pedestrian (assume no alcohol or drugs so as to not get off on a tangent) receive the same punishment as someone who premeditates a murder with a clear motive in mind? I wouldn't think so and I think the same principle needs to apply here. Sexual harassment could include acts such as a coach forcing himself sexually on a player, a coach demanding sex from an office worker and threatening her job if she does not comply, and I'm sure plenty more heinous acts if I put my mind to it. Lonergan has not been accused of saying anything directly to Nero. He was making jokes, bad jokes, to his players about him. I just don't see how one can say sexual harassment is a fireable offense as if any sexual harassment abuse is equal to or as disgusting as any other.
So no, I don't think he should be fired based solely on the allegations that came out in the Post article, even if everything is true. Now, if more evidence were to present itself from the investigation (as has been suggested might be the case), we would have to revisit this question based on what was revealed.
BM7/22/2016 11:14:33 AM
Unfortunately I fear a Hobbs-like end of tenure could result if they keep ML: Recruiting suffering irreparably, bad relations between the AD/Admin and the coach and a bitter fade of a once-great relationship.
GW '167/22/2016 11:16:11 AM
FWIW, I have a friend on my FB timeline who shared the article, and whom I know has hung out with athletes, mentioned that they knew it has been happening for a while and is relieved that someone is coming forward with it.
dmvpiranha7/22/2016 11:28:44 AM
Link to those who missed Mo Creek's comments on the show earlier
The Dude7/22/2016 11:55:39 AM
Kind of alarming how little has been expressed here about the welfare of the young men, 18-22 who play on our behalf. I grew up with my Coaches pushing our faces in the mud as we did pushups in the rain, but I never once heard this type of verbal abuse alleged in the article. Public school HS and below kids were also stuck by virtue of being born in a town in a public school, these guys have to be convinced to attend GW over many other suitors, and then they need to to be convinced to stay here for 4 years.
But that's just the nuts and bolts, above all they should be treated with a level of respect, pushed, driven hard, and when warranted criticized by the HC sure, but under the rubric of human deceny and respect. We've seen ML push assistant coaches, we've seen some very questionable sideline behvaior, BUT now we have a report of 5 players and a former staff member with very explicit, specific quotes of unacceptable verbal abuse, including stories involving totally unacceptable things purportedly said about Nero. Stunning and sad days for GW, but above all, lets remember the program is about young men getting an education and playing hoops for our entertainment and to represent our University. If the HC can't lead the program in a manner fitting his status and role as most visible member of the University, I don't believe he should remain as Coach. Recruits past present and future aside. Wins and Losses aside, zero NCAA wins and an NIT title aside.
Roost_977/22/2016 12:00:25 PM
Milennials are pussies. There. I said it.
The MV7/22/2016 12:03:35 PM
I'm pretty sure I'd rather be told that my child will always be on food stamps or that I should perhaps transfer to a transgender league than have my face pushed in the mud while doing pushups in the rain. I'm pretty sure I'd have more respect for a coach who tried to push me even with his unflattering words than to literally and physically be pushed around by a grown man.
Slayer7/22/2016 12:11:35 PM
The Dude has been waiting for an excuse to back up the firing of ML. The story has been out for less than 24 hours. Everything said against ML has been anonymous. We know nothing. Ridiculous. We have a few quotes (if we are to take the word of anonymous players) that could be taken totally out of context and placed in sports articles that are blown out of proportion because nothing is happening in the sports realm right now. For the love of god, you guys are asking for the man's head when we know nothing yet. Patrick Nero has not even commented yet! Everyone keep calm until we know more for christ's sake,
Mentzinger7/22/2016 12:15:05 PM
ON ML's FB:
Nik Caner-Medley As a former player of yours it makes me sick to read the complete BS!!! You motivated us daily and were a GREAT friend and mentor!!! All the best coach!! Let me know anything I can do please!!!!
The Dude7/22/2016 1:03:39 PM
Well MV, you might be right. Can't say I was much of a fan of that Coach, turns out he had done it to both of my older brothers and that was kind of his thing. It was also 22+ years ago, today I'd hope he'd be fired, the landscape of appropriate behavior has changed as others noted above. He's dead now but that's besides the point. The military in boot camp does that type of thing, we're preparing student atheletes for the world, not soldiers for life and death warfare, although even there I think you can be toughend up without a fat old man shoving your young face in mud, or surely the alleged behavior of ML. For the record, not at all pleased nor would I want ML fired 48 hrs ago, I still think the program was largely on the right track, despite 3 years of awful recruiting. Last note, I wouldn't rush to say the 2016 class was GW's best, 3/5 of the class is a total unknown, 1 hasn't qualified, 1 looks physically outmatched, and I'm kind of a fan of Bolden but others have him rather lightly regarded (and yes, I know players have thrived who were lightly regarded, lets not start that endless convo now!) Just a reminder, there were people saying the same lofty things about the 2014 Class and 4/5 of them are already gone.
dmvpiranha7/22/2016 1:47:47 PM
I haven't seen this posted yet, sorry if it's already somewhere else.
Another Post Story with Creek, Garino and Armwood's comments:
The MV7/22/2016 2:27:44 PM
Unbelievable. Too late. Too fucking late. Where was this article yesterday? Someone alerted the Post to the fact that maybe they could have attempted to get Lonergan's side of the story and they said "gee, I guess we should have done that", after attacking the character of a good man.
Skittles7/22/2016 2:31:22 PM
184.108.40.2067/22/2016 2:45:06 PM
Lonergan has know this was coming for at least a month. This was not a quick hit job, plenty of research was done before they printed the article.
gonzo7/22/2016 3:17:26 PM
Right. Having dealt with investigative reporters on several bad stories over the last three-ten years (created a few, subject of many), I'm sure the coach was given every opportunity to respond, even through a statement.
The MV7/22/2016 3:27:03 PM
Not that this proves or disproves a thing, but it's interesting that Rutgers paid an executive search firm $60,000 to vet and select head coaching candidates for their basketball program. Lonergan was interviewed, an indication that nothing was conveyed as being terribly wrong to the search firm.
NJ Colonial7/22/2016 3:31:22 PM
Great posts MV!
Hugh Jaynus7/22/2016 3:34:39 PM
MV out here on fire
220.127.116.117/22/2016 3:35:03 PM
search firm would not have known about internal issues (especially the new ones that had only been reported in may/june)
The Dude7/22/2016 3:44:31 PM
Gonzo, able to expand on that, feasible? Sounds interesting.
ML is acting as one would expect him to act, career on the line, and no matter the full truth I am sure he feels unfairly attacked. Also, no one can deny he's done the school a whole lot of good, turned the program around, helped launch a lot of pro careers, even if the charges (unclear as to the full veracity of them) are wholly unacceptable, there's no denying that.
BACCAS927/22/2016 3:49:26 PM
Everyone is missing the point. The allegations have damaged recruiting so badly that the only recruits we will get while he is here will make Cartagena seem like a five star. Innocent, guilty, whatever. There is some fire where the smoke was. No player NEEDS to take a chance on him when so many other opportunities exist. I have come to the conclusion that you need a fresh start.
BACCAS927/22/2016 3:52:01 PM
The thing to do is to turn over the program to the assistants for continuity while the investigation proceeds. Step down till exonerated. Let the assistants coach for now. If he is vindicated, he can come back.
The MV7/22/2016 4:05:47 PM
Dude, I'm not rushing to praise this year's recruiting class. I'm simply listening to others. Lonergan has called it his best recruiting class ever. Here is a service who has us rated third in the conference behind UMASS and VCU.
I also know of another service that had us rated 2nd behind UMASS but I can't seem to locate that one. Not convinced that anyone ever thought the 2014-15 class was supposed to be this productive.
gonzo7/22/2016 4:07:28 PM
First, it could be the philosophy: “Won’t dignify that story with a response.” This is always the wrong thing to do. Always. But too many buy into that.
Second, lawyers: Always get in the way in doing anything with any sort of urgency or responsive.
Third, incompetence: Just not knowing what to do in this situation. Do you go hard on denial, when other stuff could come out? Say something that isn’t remotely relevant? Say something that may make things worse? I would throw in trying to root out the internal leak/rat as probably one of the biggest mistakes people make. Can’t undo that and you leave a bad taste with people who may not have been involved.
In crisis communications, the first story sets the narrative tone with the press and public. You can’t undo the first impression left in a story. You must, against all odds, provide as complete, as truthful, as straightforward response by deadline. It may not be the best, but it’s something.
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:13:53 PM
On recruiting we are top 3 in A-10 I believe but register about 1.0 on the Richter Scale of Recruiting nationally while UMass, Harvard, and others are ranked. Now we know why.
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:15:34 PM
You guys think coach walks on water because he won the NIT. Really? He took an NCAA Sweet 16 caliber team and won the NIT.
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:18:06 PM
This survey has us 73rd in Recruiting:
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:26:46 PM
Top 40 according to ESPN:
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:30:03 PM
To be clear ESPN posted the top 40 and we are not there. UMASS was 25 but has since dropped to 27.
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:36:22 PM
His greatest recruiting class ever is not even top 3 in the A10:
Maine Colonial7/22/2016 4:38:30 PM
If Pato has a great Olympics and sticks in the NBA and keeps defending Lonergan, I think smart recruits and transfers like Armwood, Creek, Mitola, Sina and Steeves will keep signing up to try to make it to the NCAAs. They are hard workers and intelligent and know he is trying to push them hard to take them far. The ones who are bitter are the ones who hit their ceiling and he couldn't take them where they wanted to go because of a lack of talent, tenacity or strength. If it was so bad, why did Tyler and Sina stay and why did Hart and JR return? As for the latter two, I'm sure he was just as hard on them but he never stopped believing in them and running plays for them and they had their big moments in the NIT Championship game, which will live on forever in their highlight reels.
NotJuanJones7/22/2016 4:42:07 PM
I have no dog in this hunt--didn't go to GW (went to AU), think ML is a good coach and has raised the profile of the program. I would just say in the corporate world (and I would assume higher education is similar), when it comes to sexual harassment, once Human Resources gets involved, intent doesn't really matter. If someone is made to feel uncomfortable because of something someone did or said of a sexual nature--regardless of why or how it happened--the person who engaged in the behavior is frequently found guilty of harassment. I don't know all the details in ML's case other than what we've all read in the paper, but I don't think it matters if he said it directly to Nero or not. If Nero believes the comments created a hostile working environment for him, that's actionable.
BACCAS927/22/2016 4:49:30 PM
I see we have exceeded 270 electoral votes and won the Presidency.
squid7/22/2016 4:54:49 PM
Great, the Japan Times picked it up. There goes that pipeline.
What I don't get about all the mental gymastics about this story is this -- a coach being a jerk to players is nothing new. Then again, the WaPo said one player went to therapy and considered quitting basketball. That's not good. Weak kid? Maybe, but still bad.
The other part is he was talking about the AD, his boss, to the players, over what appear to be ah, social issues between them. Homophobic statements, saying Nero masturbates to players, had sex with a player and such. That is SUPER unprofessional no matter what line of work you are in.
Of course, that's assuming these statements are true. The rumors I've heard say they are. Which really sucks. I guess we'll see about this investigation.
ziik7/22/2016 5:04:39 PM
Baccas-I am worried that you are stroking out. Grab ahold of yourself.
Thirty years ago, I was falsely mentioned in a news article, as being one of several lawyers involved with a judge, who was, for some reason, handing out favored, plumb appointments to a small group of her acquaintances.
The article was published, some friends called, and told me about it. I was real surprised, they each felt they needed to ask me, if it was true. I told them, I did not know the judge outside of open court, but I would need to read the article to say more. I had no idea who the sources were for the story, and, for all I knew, it could have come from someone close to me. I did not think I had any sort of public reputation of any sort.
I read the article, and saw that all the other named parties happened to be female lawyers, and so was the judge. They all were from the same law school.
I then got a call from the reporter, who wanted my comment for a follow up story.
I told her that the time to ask me for comment was before she put my name in print the first time, and I had no reason to add to the publicity surrounding her stories.
I would not even protest my innocence to a charge that already had been made public. It would be a waste of more ink.
That ended the matter.
It was potentially very embarrassing, and, career threatening. On a different day, maybe I would have responded differently. There was a payoff scam at the courthouse, and I had figured it out on my own long before.
bobo7/22/2016 5:07:06 PM
Give it a rest, BAACAS92. You repeat the same post over and over.
2twotoed7/22/2016 5:19:14 PM
I am a season ticket holder and sit very close to GW's bench. I was also a scholarship athlete at the school. There is no denying that ML is a tough coach to play for. I have gotten to know Mike and Patrick Nero pretty well and had no idea there were issues between them. I've been at away games and they were always very cordial and seemed to enjoy each others company. I certainly would want the process to play itself out before I demand somebody's job. BACCAS you need to calm down.
Formerly Senioritis7/22/2016 5:31:11 PM
Ziik, seems the big difference here is that Mike and the university were given ample opportunity to respond to allegations. They have known for over a month that the article was coming out and what the allegegations were.
ziik7/22/2016 5:34:01 PM
Were they asked to comment for the article, or after it was written? (I do not know at all)
18.104.22.1687/22/2016 5:42:49 PM
he was asked to talk to the paper well before the article came out---hence the calling of the players to grill them about who talked
ziik7/22/2016 5:51:15 PM
Got, it, thanks. Had not seen the entire Post story.
The Dude7/22/2016 6:07:31 PM
Gonzo, thx, good post. I put my own lawyer hat on, and reading into ML's statement, "half-truths" is an interesting phrase used, issued a non total denial denial.
As far as recruiting, I'm actually heartened to see us in the top 4. I believe last year we were dead last in the A10 and that's what we got from that class. This is a much larger class of recruits, but really there's just 2 that outsider observers would be impressed by, so seeing us top 4, to me that's a pretty good sign. Personally I'm really excited about those 2 guys, and you'd have to go back 4 years to the 2012 class to feel the same way about 2 recruits in a class for GW. Of course, one now has to be concerned that these recruits will stick around sadly. Lets hope so.
GW737/22/2016 6:08:56 PM
Feud between Nero and Lonergan was not a secret to many follwoers of GW baskteball. It was not first AD-coach feud in college sports and it won't be the last. I heard GW fans discussing it in the stands during games, It wasn't clear how bad it was. We still don't know how it started. But what we all should be disappointed about is --- why was Lonergan talking to players about the feud? And even worse, why was he using the lanaguage he did? You can't invent quotes that Post reported his players said. One thing we do know is that we have a coach who can't control himself. And now the GW basketball program is a mess. Sad.
Bo Knows7/22/2016 6:35:39 PM
The bullshit in this thread is mind bogling. We have one guy worried about recruiting. Fuck recruiting right now nobody gives a shit at this moment when the entire program hangs in the balance. We have another guy wanting to make verbal abuse seem like its worse than physical abuse. Oh okay ask Bobby Knight about that theory. We have another guy who probably is on the Washoington Post payroll posting as "Poster" telling us only tidbits that defend the writing of the story because the Post knows they f'ed this up. That's why Steinberg and not Kilgore wrote the follow-up article.
And the Post is now reeling from apparently not canvassing former players like Garino, Creek, Armwood and soon others for a statement. That's a bad look and is making this look more and more like a hatchet job no pun intended because of the salacious nature of what I am told are false statements attributed to ML. Kilgore thought he had another Mike Rice on his hands and now we are finding out otherwise. He better hope his story is buttoned up or he better get his resume together.
Skittles7/22/2016 6:40:56 PM
Poster if you opened your mouth and anything other than lies came out that would be a neat trick!
Maine Colonial7/22/2016 6:56:20 PM
Why didn't Kilgore contact Maryland and Georgetown transfers and former players and offer them anonymity in return for dirt on those two coaches and programs. I'm guessing they use colorful language on occasion. The upside of this story is that if Lonergan survives, we don't have to worry about other programs trying to hire him away.
hoopfan787/22/2016 6:58:40 PM
skittles, not sure where "poster" is getting facts from, but i'm not on post payroll and what he stated is 100% true. This story has been in the works for more than 6 weeks. Direct questions were received by GW/Mike asking to asnwer to the allegations. This wasn't a quick turnaround it was a thourough investigation.
The University will now go through its process and interview players from last years team to find out what the true is. it probably won't be quick and no matter the outcome many will not be happy.
Bo Knows7/22/2016 7:02:24 PM
hoopfan78 ... now how would you know that?
Skittles7/22/2016 7:07:52 PM
LA Fan7/22/2016 7:14:18 PM
hoopfan78, it is hard to fathom that the program and AD knew about this for 6 weeks and did nothing to dispell the story. Why not during that time reach out to former and current players to see if they'd go on record as character witnesses for ML? Why did everyone backing ML stay silent until after the story's was reported? If they did try to give positive quotes to the WP and Kilgore chose to not include them, then I think just about everyone would conclude that this was a total hit piece.
22.214.171.1247/22/2016 7:17:44 PM
Strickland left to "spend more time with family" after confronting Lonergan about his behavior and defending a player during practice, resulting in Lonergan directing his venom at him and telling him to GTFO...
It was never a secret at GW that Lonergan would do what was necessary to run off recruiting mistakes and free up money or that basketball players - including many of the stars - were extremely unhappy with, and disrespected by, his coaching methods.
It was rationalized because he won. Some of the new complaints are definitely shocking - but based on what I know and what I've heard I believe every word.
Good for the players who stood up to it. It doesn't really matter if some of the guys have come out in his defense - the feelings of those who spoke out are real and warranted...
hoopfan787/22/2016 7:25:28 PM
LA Fan, I belive the article goes into detail about conversations with mike "declined several requests to be interveiwed" & "responded to a list of players complaints". My comments was only giving the timing of how long ago those requests were made.
I wouldn't know more than you why GW didn't rush to ML's defense. Also wouldn't know if the post attempted to speak with other current/former players beyond the five noted.
ziik7/22/2016 7:33:36 PM
Seems like guys held their tempers for years, then blurted out stories to the reporters or their peers. Not healthy for anybody.
Issues need immediate ressolution in most any organization, before they fester.
Former friend7/22/2016 7:47:05 PM
Poster is giving you info that only ppl close to players know but y'all don't want to hear it smh. Many on here tend to take tidbits of info on players and coaches and act like you know them personally. But you've had no idea.
ziik7/22/2016 7:51:19 PM
On Savage: I thought from his recruitment it was stated as fact, Joe was immediately ready to play the point, but, that by year 3 or 4, Savage would be the leaf guard. I wonder what happened to that plan, cause I heard it multiple times.
ziik7/22/2016 7:52:41 PM
Bo Knows7/22/2016 8:12:06 PM
I love all these "former friends" coming here to tell us they know the "real" story. More anonymity. More bullshit.
126.96.36.1997/22/2016 8:21:47 PM
so says the king of anonymous bullshit.
Bo Knows7/22/2016 8:35:58 PM
So says the guy who can't even spend five seconds making up an anonymous screen name. I can smell your bullshit through the computer screen - it's that malodorous.
ziik7/22/2016 8:43:02 PM
Some guys just don;t want another name, Bo. I recall ziik, jr. always wanted to go to Halloween events dressed "like a boy." Nothing more or less.
Meanwhile, I enjoy Neil's opinion. Your, too Bo.
herve7/22/2016 8:56:42 PM
Move over Matt Allbritton's video, the firing of Tom Penders and the death of Ronald Reagan as this is now the longest thread of all-time on this board.
188.8.131.527/22/2016 9:12:44 PM
Bo don't know diddly!
I know what you want to believe Bo - but everything I posted above (two 'posters' up - not the last 'poster') about Lonergan, his behavior, and Stricklands firing is a fact and that's why I absolutely can see him taking it to the another level...
He's been flirting with the 'line' since he arrived, crossing it many times IMO. He could have easily been let go long ago, but his success clouded that issue for the AD. I doubt they're surprised by what's happening now.
I'd wager he's on his way out - and if he's not, then there are bigger questions to ask of the Athletic department and the university. Including, does the culture of putting the students athletes first only apply to the non-revenue sports?
The Dude7/22/2016 9:12:54 PM
Pop the champagne!
Too bad its not such a celebratory subject. Eager to see what the 11 Albritton family members have to say on this thread given their contributions to the previous champion thread.
hungryhungrytrachtenberg7/22/2016 9:53:54 PM
Intentionally driving this thread off topic, I know everyone enjoyed the Matt Albritton videos and the resulting discussion. If anyone didn't know, Matt's father passed away suddenly a couple of years ago. Wish him all the best.
Bo Knows7/22/2016 10:03:46 PM
Who is feeding you this crap? If it is PS you are in trouble.
Not a former friend 7/22/2016 10:18:26 PM
Can someone who has friends in the program and believe this story to be 100% true explain the comments of the former players and the liking of tweets by a former player and a current player? Very curious.
GW Alum Abroad7/22/2016 10:29:10 PM
Have we topped the football thread yet?
I'd remind posters that this thread is about the story in the Washington Post, so take your personal squabbles to another thread.
BM7/22/2016 10:42:05 PM
Do I get a free gwhoops.com T for starting the thread?
RKelley7/22/2016 10:56:15 PM
What a shame. I seriously cannot believet ML is being called abusive. What is going on with people.
Everyday, people harm each other, harm themselves, nations go to war, the oceans are filled with plastic, there's antibiotic-resistant bacteria and THIS is what we're worried about!? What is happening to people in the first world? How out of touch.
Maybe it's a more serious issue. But the articles reek of exaggeration and downright bullshit. Typical yellow sports journalism that now dominates sports.
The supposedly horrid quotes I saw from ML were pretty precisely the kind of stuff every coach I've ever had or been around has said. These are young men, not babies, this is the nature of competition--there's a lot of pain and pressure involved at that level. And frankly, when the cameras are off and if everyone is honest, this is really how men communicate. People have dirty mouths, and it's a harsh world.
Everyone can act like they're angels, and rewrite history. But I'm 29. less than a decade ago, I remember coaches using what would now be called "homophic" and "sexist" and maybe even "transphobic" slurs on the reg. Being called a "pussy", a "wussy", a "f*ggot", or something like that was normal. Even if it's to the benefit of society to be kinder, you can't just flip a light switch. People make mistakes.
If the goal is for everyone to have more empathy, then branding people terrible things for totally fixable and not even that abnorble behavior is really messed up. From everything I've seen ML is a great coach and has elevated the program. Unless he's going Bob Knight on the kids, and truely berating them--"you're bad and you'll always be bad, you'll never amount to anything, you're a coward, you're gay and that's bad"--then let's not ruin a good man's career.
RKelley7/22/2016 10:58:52 PM
And furthermore, this feud betwee Nero and ML is what's even more disturbing. For one of the few times in history, GW has something good going for it in a sport that people actually care about. Chill with the pettiness and let it grow. I put *that* one both of them. Grow the fuck up.
RKelley7/22/2016 11:03:01 PM
Sports news networks will stop selling garbage if we stop buying it.
I have a theory, that most of this obsession with seeming nonsense and things that don't matter is related to a generation of people who face a lot of uncertainty long-term, particularly career-wise. And their outlet is to flip out about nonsense and not face the real problems--like a solid career.
When I was unemployed, silly and petty concerns filled my life. When I got a job, I got some perspective back. I really think this the root of the problem.
RKelley7/22/2016 11:10:21 PM
I presume the guys that were interviewed were the same guys that transferred. It wouldn't be wise to go public with career-threatening information about your current boss. We don't need John Nash to tell us that.
At the same time, I'm not going to speculate on who said what much more because I think this story is BS and I think it's textbook yellow journalism.
I think a few kids who left the program probably told a so-called journalist (or smut peddler maybe) they don't like the guy and that he yells a lot. I suspect an opportunist took this and tried to squeeze some money out of it with a bunch of bullshit. Pushing the homophobic/racist/transphobic/sexist hysteria button is easy money and pats on the back these days.
Bigfan7/23/2016 12:13:03 AM
So the current hypothesis is that this brilliant piece of independent investigative reporting (NOT, I'm being sarcastic) was in the works for more than a month,even six weeks.
And in that time, no former player,former assistant coach could be found or convinced to speak on the record. Not even nes retired,done with GW, or done with basketball. Stunning. Remarkable professional incompetence.
And in that well more than a month,no one could be found,such as current or former player or assistant, who would say anything positive about ML. Or at least anything on the record. Now, for weeks,you could easily find Garino because his schedule was all over the Internet. And all these millennials hang out on their phone and Lonergan supporters are easily located on Facebook and Twitter.
Also,Mo Creek lives around here. So if you are a Washington Post somehow not amiliar with cell phones or social media,knock on Mo Creek or his parent' s door.
What about Siena coach Jimmy Patsos, Lonergan's best friend. Or Gary Williams. Or Morgan Wooten. They know a thing or two about both basketball and ML.
Can' t find anything positive about ML or anyone positive to quote in SIX WEEKS. Yet,they come out of the woodwork in six hours.
Quote Nero' s lawyer,a sexual harassment expert. But not Lonergan' s lawyer. Then find some legal expert who libelously says without seeing all or most of the details of the case,that he is guilty of sexual harassment. Found guilty,with no qualifier. Now maybe therevwas a qualifier and the reporter left them out.
No lawyer from the other side, no coach saying how difficult it is with sensitive millennials,but damn him with an anonymous quote from ONE former member of the coaching staff,who has no reason to claim anonymity.
Perhaps this was pushed by one former player under the coddlingly protective gauze of anonymity. Then,the reporter,smelling an anti- GW story, a big plus where he works,automatically offers aninymity,which is contrary with little doubt, to the rules of both The Post and journalism in general. That is anonymous sources only when necessary. Always,always try to get someone on the record first. And aways try again to get something on the record from an anonymous source to establish credibility,even if some things can' t be used with a name.
Meanwhile,even a modestly skilled reporter can get an on the record quote,lke a positive one,about Lonergan,in less than an hour. This happens in newsrooms across the world every dsy.
Now,fill in the blanks in your blind and whatbreads like cleaned up TOTALLY negative quotes with your own supposition and hyperbole.
Put it out in mid- morning to let it marinate all day in the Internet world. Your first print deadline is still eight hours away. During those eight hours,vociferous defenders of the maligned coach emerge ON THE RECORD. All over the Internet. Ignore that for the morning paper.
Too much work. Or most important doesn' t fit the narrative.
In fact,not the article writer,but only Dan Steinberg,wrote about the positive Garino,Armwood and Creek tweets. Otherwise,it ignored. It wasn' t Steinberg's story,but he is decent,professional and doesn' t hate GW.
Also ignore Coach Lonergan's graduation rate,the fact that Adam Mitola sent his brother to play for Lonergan even asca walk-on,with no scholarship.
Basically,the author put in as much time trying to find out thev facts as the Rolling Stone UVa. Writer. The narrative is too juicy to sully withnthe facts.
Voila! A decent,family man' s livelihood is ruined for the rest of his life.
If there' s something horrible there,and some people say when there's smoke,there' s fire, prove it. Go to it. Do it the right way and I' ll salute your enterprise.
But we have nothing but questions from this way lower than half ass reporting that is ruining a real man' s career.
No matter what happens or what comes out, this piece of crap and its writer deserve hame,scorn and disbelief--along with disgust
Bigfan7/23/2016 12:27:32 AM
It was Alex Mitola who sent his brother Adam to play as a walk on in this allegedly abusive environment.
Either Dartmouth economics graduate and International Trade MBA student Alex is not a bright judge of character, or there is another side to the story.
Not found in the slightest in the Post. Shame on them.
Skittles7/23/2016 1:33:52 AM
check out Lonergan's Facebook for those who are friends or have access to it.
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 8:16:11 AM
Adam Kilgore describes himself aptly on his Twitter page: "National sports reporter for The Washington Post. Riding the line between honesty and schmucky journalist piling on." How appropriate in light of how he took what could have been a good story and turned it into a one-sided hatchet job. As a former newspaper reporter, I can tell you there is definitely a story here. In light of what Duke Women's Head Coach Joanne P. McCauley went through earlier this year and what Mike is experiencing now, there is an emerging pattern of millenial kids who have transferred out of top programs lashing out against their former old school coaches and trying to take them down. And it certainly looks like universities are going to have to tighten the reins on their old school coaches to make sure the universities don't face PR nightmares like this one and open themselves up to potential lawsuits. Clearly some kids like Armwood, Creek and Pato can see the benefit of being pushed so hard by an old school coach. And that's exactly the part of the story Kilgore left out and it was left to Dan Steinberg to write the follow up story and try to clean up Kilgore's mess. It looks like Kilgore may even have reservations about how he handled the story because he retweeted Garino's comments defending Lonergan and also retweeted Steinberg's story. I am not surprised Kilgore mishandled the story given how he sees himself and his role. But his editors at the Post should have made him balance it out before it saw the light of day. That's their job. Why was it so necessary to publish it now instead of wait a week or two until the story was ready? I am guessing Kilgore or his editors were going on vacation and they wanted the story to hit before the team travels to Japan. I am sure they also hoped the story would encourage other former Lonergan players to step forward and describe similar experiences. But the one thing they underestimated is how many friends Mike Lonergan has. I am guessing the Post editors have been under fire ever since the story hit the newstand and the internet. There is no denying Lonergan is quirky and unusual. What other coach would put on a hula skirt and coconut shells and dance in front of his team? And it seems like he is able to get along with everybody but Nero, which is a real shame. Student athletes seem to love Nero and the way he is supportive of them and their teams. Last year was the best year in the history of GW sports and I was hoping this year was going to be even better but it's not starting off so well. I hope the investigation exonerates Lonergan but forces him to lighten up a bit and patch things up with Nero for the benefit of the whole program and the university. And I hope Nero stays because he seems like a sharp guy and he has done wonders since his arrival. I am guessing the new five-year strategic plan for the athletics program will include more emphasis on teaching coaches how to interact appropriately with their athletes and still push them and also put in place tighter standards on conduct and behavior. Postive change can result from this nightmare and the school and the program can continue to Raise High.
2cents7/23/2016 8:31:51 AM
I find it interesting that even on the VCU board, they are talking about it and have made some interesting observations...similar to some of ours. I am not saying I agree...
"This explains why GW crashes and burns in mid-February of each year. By mid-February, the players are tired of dealing with Longeran."
"It also explains why he has trouble recruiting. Most of his big hits have been transfers lately."
"Lonergan's starting five this past year was the best in the league, but they faltered down the stretch and A10 tourney, before rallying to win the NIT. His teams every year seem to fade at the end. You have to ask yourself why and this may be part of it"
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 8:36:47 AM
One of the things Kilgore could have touched on is how Lonergan relates to athletes from diverse backgrounds. It seems pretty clear he doesn't have any difficulty relating to African American players, which is comforting given what is happening nationally. And it seems like he can get along with international players like Garino and even a Jewish kid like Hart. So what do the five or so players who are lashing out have in common? Are they mostly sensitive white kids who are short on basketball talent and clearly didn't experience any favorable treatment under Lonergan? Kilgore left his readers in the dark by giving the players complete anonymity and not generalizing about who they are. And he also failed to give Lonergan any credit by failing to include any favorable quotes from players who respect him. Some of the players Kilgore reached out to must have had positive things to say about him either on the telephone or in emails. But he decided to leave them out and focus on portraying Lonergan as an out-of-control monster and then smear Nero at the same time. Unbelievable.
Rich Maier7/23/2016 9:11:22 AM
News Flash form Maine Colonial....ML gets along with a Jewish kid. WOW great post. Maine does ML get along with more than Hart? You are a FOOL.
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 9:32:47 AM
Maybe you could expound a little on that and share what you know RICH. As a GW alum and donor, I am trying to figure out what Lonergan is like and whether he deserves to remain the head coach at GW and whether I should continue donating. Maybe you can enlighten me. As bad as the Kilgore story was, it would have been far worse if it painted ML as a racist and an Anti-Semite on top of everything else. Fortunately it didn't so if he's an old school coach, thankfully he's not that old school.
hoopfan787/23/2016 9:42:30 AM
so homophobia/anti-gay is ok?
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 9:47:14 AM
Definitely not. Hopefully the investigation will reveal whether that is true or not. Do you have any evidence besides the deeply-flawed Kilgore story that he is homophobic and anti-gay?
GW 697/23/2016 9:53:39 AM
He gets along with a Jewish kid? That's an awfully low bar in 20016
don't you think. EVEN a Jew! Maine I am surprised and dissapointed
in your post.
Rich Maier7/23/2016 9:54:46 AM
Maine, ML loves all EVEN a Jewish kid. I'm talking to you not ML. Donate if you wish as I have done in the past. I'm withholding any contribution until this is settled. Do what you feel is right. Donate or don't donate it's an individual decision. I don't care. Just looking for the truth.
The Dude7/23/2016 9:56:37 AM
Atheist Jew here, often don't know when Passover or most holidays even are, but I do like to see Jewish athletes thrive. I think I've learned one thing from these 330+ posts................Matt Hart is a Jew! L'chayim!!
Rich Maier7/23/2016 9:56:52 AM
Maine, forgot to mention that I graduated from GW in 1972. So I'm not impressed that you are an alum.
hoopfan787/23/2016 9:58:30 AM
Despite your issues with the story, i'm curious if you think that 5 (all be it unamed) sources would confirm the quotes about the comments he made about the AD and one took it even further with his quotes to espn. This is someone who provided email communications of his corrospondance with the AD and title IX coordinator.
i understand those who say grow up he's just being tough. But those comments are so much more than being tough on a kid.
BACCAS927/23/2016 10:00:17 AM
2cents exactly same sentiments I have expressed.
Tim Dunkin7/23/2016 10:02:09 AM
An investigation already happened and news flash it was found that none of the accusations were true. Educate yourselves.
Formerly Senioritis7/23/2016 10:05:18 AM
the investigation was last summer. The email that the post quoted from from the post season. so something happened two seasons ago to cause an investigation to be needed. After the following season another investigation was started. Is this normal for college basketball coaches? do coaches have investigations against them each season?
hoopfan787/23/2016 10:06:27 AM
also the comments about the AD were from this season. Should they be ignored because an investigation took place a year ago?
GW Alum Abroad7/23/2016 10:06:55 AM
Just to clarify, in addition to the five unnamed players, the Post also has ML's confirmation that there was an investigation and (apparently) an email trail created AFTER the investigation. True or not, the Post is relying on more than just anonymous sources on for this story.
thinker7/23/2016 10:16:46 AM
People need to understand the Post is not relying on unnamed sources. They know who the players and witnesses are. They are unnamed to us not to them.
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 10:55:48 AM
One of my favorite highlights of the season was Lonergan calling out the play for Hart in the NIT Championship game and throwing his arms up to signal the three while Matt was releasing the shot from the Chase logo. Lonergan knew the shot was going in. Lonergan had agreed to let the D3 walk on from Hamilton College join the team and give him a shot to prove he could play at the D1 level. Lonergan could have cared less what color or religion he was but was looking for a player who could hit a big shot in a pivotal game. Hart delivered.
The Dude7/23/2016 11:12:46 AM
This has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with race or religion, the question is whether the HC abused certain players verbally in a manner unacceptable to his remaining our HC. Lets not bury the lede. At this juncture I'd say strongly the answer to that Q is unclear. What is clear however is the issue at hand.
Still Here7/23/2016 11:19:43 AM
I am starting to have more doubts about this story. Bigfan sort of illuded to this, but Nero's lawyers involvement in this article (again a sexual harrassment lawyer) is starting to seem shady to me. To what extent do you think Nero was involved in this article? Is it possible he got some of the kids he knew had a problem with lonergan to talk?
I'm not saying that there are any lies in here; but I do think that Nero was WAY more involved in this article. Someone had to be telling Adam who to talk to. There is 0 chance he just happened not to talk to all the guys who would defend Lonergan. I bet Nero shaped this entire article.
hoopfan787/23/2016 11:25:04 AM
still here, what does Nero gain from this article?
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 11:26:41 AM
By the way, GW 69 and Rich Maier, if you come up here to Maine I will take you on a tour of the Etz Chaim Synagogue in Portland LINK and Congregation Bet Ha'am in South Portland LINK Bet Ha'am is one of the most striking synagogues I have ever explored. And I can tell you all about GW alum Abraham Rattner's stained glass windows in the Chicago Loop Synagogue. LINK LINK
CT Colonial7/23/2016 11:29:54 AM
@2cents I disagree. I think that GW faltering down the stretch had more to do with a lack of a depth than ML's coaching style. Additionally, it seems as if ML has had somewhat of a tough time landing good recruits in the smaller classes, and I don't think that's a reflection of what was alleged in the article. He's done a great job with the program (at least in terms of basketball success), and I don't see how anyone could argue with that.
Rich Maier7/23/2016 11:41:24 AM
Maine, there is no excuse for your post. As I said I'm Christian and my wife is Jewish. I don't judge people by their religion. Been to many synagogues so there is no need to travel to Portland. Thanks for the offer.
2cents7/23/2016 11:47:21 AM
CT, I was merely conveying some of what I read on the VCU board. I don't have enough info to say whether it is true or not, I only thought it was interesting that other schools have noticed some of the stuff that has been brought up here on occasion, all very valid points and questions that none of us will really ever know the answers to. They also compared transfer rates and realized they aren't all that different,and admitted that during his tenure thus far he has seemed to move the program in a positive direction. I can say that VCU followers do not seem to be huge fans of ML.
LA Fan7/23/2016 12:26:20 PM
"still here, what does Nero gain from this article?"
I thought about this too. Did Nero set this article up as payback to ML for his alleged comments? I don't think so. He gains nothing from this story. First of all it is probably embarrassing. Secondly, Nero was the big advocate for hiring ML. A lot of Nero's job performance likely rests on the performance of the basketball program. This story has the potential to set the program back for years. I just don't understand why Nero and ML didn't try to shoot this story down while it was being written. If they had any chance of killing it, or at least postponing its publication, why stay silent and let it go to press? It's like watching somebody walk off of a cliff and not even bothering to yell at them to stop.
The one thing that I think doesn't get mentioned enough, is this article is not about some former players having gripes. The article mentions twice that they talked to former and CURRENT players and staff. That is why I think ML will probably not make it through this. The past is one thing, the present is another.
ziik7/23/2016 12:36:57 PM
I find it all hard to believe. Nero holds the cards. If he believed this, why would he not just fire his employee? (I know it is not simple. But, the lack of action of any sort, to me suggests there are just a few guys wh do not like ML.)
GW Alum Abroad7/23/2016 1:47:24 PM
Not so sure how much of this can be attributed to "times have changed" since this happened 23 years ago (i.e. before most players involved were potty trained)
The MV7/23/2016 1:59:35 PM
How could Nero have fired Lonergan? 5 years and 3 million left on his contract and off of a NIT Championships? He would have had a lot of explaining to do. Am not at all suggesting that Nero wanted or wants Lonergan gone, but if he did, an article such as this one could only help his cause.
ziik7/23/2016 2:28:09 PM
You're right, MV. But, it has been done. I guess there were no dead bodies.
Formerly Senioritis7/23/2016 2:43:55 PM
ziik just curious, if the ongoing investigation leads to MV leaving the program (by resignation or removal) are you going to believe they "found a body" or are you going to continue to believe this is a "hit job" (as others have said)?
GW697/23/2016 2:44:51 PM
Dude---check out the web site Jew or not a Jew ; it's hysterical..
Just went there for some relief from this craziness.
thinker7/23/2016 2:52:28 PM
1) The Washington Post has reported that 5 players and some staffers have said ML said the following things. Does anyone doubt that those people told Kilgore that stuff? Whether those people are telling the truth or not is a different matter. Anger at the Washington Post or Adam Kilgore is misguided. He reported what a bunch of people told him. He and the Post found those statements credible and thus reported it. That's what newspapers are supposed to do.
2) I think it's crazy and irresponsible speculation to say Nero might have caused all of this to "deal" with ML.
3) Recruiting talk and new coach talk is woefully misplaced at this moment.
BACCAS927/23/2016 3:11:59 PM
Recruiting talk is not misplaced and anybody who thinks it is, knows nothing about college sports and is an apologist for whatever the school does, did, or will do. The perception of the scandal will cause kids not to come to GW. Damage is done. Come on guys you know how scandals work; you went to freaking GW and at least half of us studied Political Science.
BACCAS927/23/2016 3:16:08 PM
There is one way to fix this. And each one of these things must be done. A press conference (not tweets) by several recent players organized by them to own the cycle. Second the University did the right thing by hiring the outside law firm. That needs to be expedited. Third. We need to land a major recruit to show the allegations have not rendered us impotent. I know the third is not in our power.
Hoopfan787/23/2016 3:19:50 PM
Baccas, this seems to presume that the outside law firm doesn't find truth to the statements? does it not? what if they interview current players and the story is corroborated?
Bo Knows7/23/2016 3:40:40 PM
Thinker you can't really believe your first point. So if I call up the post and tell them something and then I have you call and tell them the same thing they can run with it without more? These are not established trusted sources and the fact that the nature of the allegations were explosive requires a more thorough basis than self-serving emails.
bobo7/23/2016 4:23:04 PM
People plant stories to further their agandas all the time in DC. Obviously Nero was appraised of the upcoming story by Kilgore and clearly didn't do anything to help kill it or present ML in a good light. Conversely, his attorney spoke for Nero saying Nero "will not be deterred from advocating for students by false and reprehensible remarks".
It's doubful Kilgore just stumbled apon this story and college players proobably don't have the media savy to know to reach out to a WaPo reporter on these allegations. Nero would have that savy. And Nero would know who to direct Kilgore to speak to for confirmation.
Firing ML right after his team won the NIT and with about $3m left on the books would be a difficult move for Nero. But with the WaPo story, there is momentum building towards ML's dismissal. There is outraged alumni and now an additonal 3rd party investigation. IF Nero wanted ML gone, he would be much closer to enacting that plan after the WaPo story than he would have been before it.
We don't know who at GW (or a transfer) initiated this story at the WaPo. Maybe it wasn't Nero. But it's hard to blame him if it was. I'd be pissed to if I heard that ML said I wanted practice tapes so I could masterbate to them. It's offensive and a fireable offense.
But I also wouldn't want everything I said in the past about one of my bosses to be public. Sometimes we say things in confidence about a fellow employee/supervisor that (in restrospect) is clearly inappropriate and wrong. I also wouldn't want to neccessarily fire any employee that talks smack about a boss behind his/her back. If they're a good employee, I would hope there could be other remidies short of termination.
The Dude7/23/2016 4:42:19 PM
Doc 69, fan of that site, spent more time on it than at Temple since it launched, always a few surprises in both directions.
Bobo's post looks about as spot on as any on the thread. Of course one could immediately DQ about 1/2 of the posts claiming the story is entirely made up, when on its surface, that's almost impossible to believe.
Final thought for now, if it really were to come down to Nero or ML, and we could only have one (as that may well appear to be now) I'd take Nero. Not a diss on ML as much as a wow Nero has hit a homerun across the board and I have faith he'd hire a string of good Coaches, just as he's done across the canvas in all other sports. Also though, my confidence in ML as both a leader and a guy who keep elevating the program has obviously been shaken (but surely you all know that by now.)
thinker7/23/2016 4:50:32 PM
Bo, I do believe what I posted and very much so.
If you called up the Post and tried to spin a yarn, then I'm sure they would attempt to verify what you've said. If they don't believe you, then generally they aren't going with the story. If what you say sounds true to them and they believe you and they can get some other type of corroborating information, then they're going to print it. I feel quite confident that the Post gets MANY leads that they never pursue for a variety of reasons, including that they don't believe the person that gave them the information.
A newspaper is not a court - not that our court system is very fair either. The reporter talks to people and tries to corroborate what they have told them. If they find it credible to THEM then they publish it They gave ML an opportunity to respond for the story and he chose not to. By their account, they talked to 5 former and current players and more than one staffer. The Post found it all to be sufficiently credible to publish it. LOTS of things get published all of the time that are less well sourced and corroborated. And at least SEVEN witnesses that corroborate some or all of the story is a GINORMOUS TON of witnesses. There is almost never a story about almost anything at this level that would have that many witnesses.
Did these players and staffers tell the Post this stuff? I'm 100% sure they did. Is it all true and in proper context? Who knows, but in these kinds of stories nobody EVER gets all of the details exactly right. That's why there's going to be an outside counsel investigation.
Understand that the Post doesn't say ML said these things, they said 5 players and other staffers said he did.
Just like we have no idea what ML did or didn't say to anyone, we have no idea what the various witnesses told the Post. Who knows what things they felt were not credible and left out of the story? We have no idea what information they had and what they discussed. Maybe if you or I were the Post editor we would have written a different story. But the Post does its business the way it wants to do its business.
The fundamental problem for ML and GW is not the Post. The fundamental problem is that there are at least SEVEN people who were in a position to witness these things who have said ML said these kinds of things. Being angry at the Post is being angry at the messenger.
And it's very hard for SEVEN people to coordinate a big conspiracy lie. That's almost certainly why the Post found the stuff credible enough to print.
I am definitely not against ML and I hope there can be a way to mend whatever fences need mending so he can continue at GW. But the notion that this is some bullshit sloppy journalism about a couple of disgruntled players and staffers with axes to grind doesn't seem to ME like what this is. But we will see what the investigation yields and what the administration decides.
Bo Knows7/23/2016 5:03:36 PM
Thinker you either are naive (I don't think you are) or you didn't read carefully. The Post does not have multiple witnesses to any particular aspect of this story. What they have is 5 or 6 anonymous people who believe that in a qualitative sense that ML was abusive. That is like a Rorschach test. So for example if I believe ML didn't play me enough I might feel he was abusive. That is different than someone else saying he said this or that specifically. Do me a favor and read the story without the salacious comments about PN. Do you think this gets written? So what we really have is one person who has caused this to be written and a bunch of others jumping on the grievance train for all sorts of reasons relating to their own situation.
Chet7/23/2016 5:09:26 PM
+1 Bo Knows
184.108.40.2067/23/2016 5:09:52 PM
comical bullshit from bo knows
Maine Colonial7/23/2016 5:24:28 PM
What we have is clearly a personnel matter just like Duke had with Joanne P. McCaule and the allegations she was abusiing players. I think this is going to get worked out and Lonergan will be on a shorter leash. And I would also guess Mike and Patrick are both packing for the trip to Japan. Hopefully they take time during the 12+ hour flight to Tokyo to mend fences for the benefit of both the school and the program.
ziik7/23/2016 5:30:48 PM
If its true, is it something that requires dismissal? That is what I wonder.
It's remotely possible those words were said, or suggested, bit presented as being funny, and they were taken seriously. (The masturbation stuff.) I had gay friends who could have laughed that off. But not all of them.
SO, is it fireable, if true? If there are other points that need be considered, I'd like to know.
If ML is disrespectful of his boss in some innocuous manner? Is that even possiblle given the sexual politics?
St Patrick7/23/2016 5:36:14 PM
I think Matt Hart is Irish Catholic. Canisius High in Buffalo is a Jesuit school.
bobo7/23/2016 5:37:21 PM
It may well come down to ML vs Nero for GWU to decide between. I'm with Dude on this in going for Nero. I had thought they made a great combo and thought they would last together a long time at GW. But if that's not the case, Nero has been consistently impressive across the board and I woud trust him to find a good replacement for ML. HOWEVER, I hope it doesn't come to that and they can work things out and ML can learn to adjust to the new landscape in college bball.
ELJ7/23/2016 6:04:49 PM
Maine Colonial: First, as a former track athlete (of little note, but still, a runner), I've enjoyed your posts on GW track and cross-country. And like you, I'm a former newspaper reporter. That said, however, you may have missed John Feinstein's comment on the Sports Junkies when he said, "Somebody laid that story on Kilgore's desk and told him to follow it up."
I'd like to kmow who that "somebody" was and how he or she got the original tip/story. But if Feinstein is right, it did not originate with Adam Kilgore.
Free Quebec7/23/2016 6:47:44 PM
ELJ, seems clear that a former player gave Kilgore his side of the story and the emails (including his frustration that the Title IX investigation yielded what the player saw as insufficient action). Then, then the reporter started calling other players for corroboration.
In terms of what is corroborated and what isn't per the article:
- He got multiple players to say that they agreed that ML's style crossed the line from constructive to mean-spirited. (others, per the response to the article, do not beleive this. This seems to be a subjective question).
- He got multiple players to specifically corroborate the "transgenered league" quote, but not the Food Stamps quote (if you read that graph, the reporter specifiies that mutliple players confirm the transgenered league quote, but he writes it in a way that suggests he didn't get the same corroboration of the food stamp quote. Either that, or he's just a sloppy writer and his editor sucks).
- He got multiple players to confirm he made "explicit" comments about Nero and that ML told the players that Nero wanted the practice tapes to masturbate to. It is not clear from the article if any other expliit comments were corroborated by multiple sources or if this is the only specific that several attest to. (Note: there's not much context here - my assumption is that as part of the investigiation into the Title IX alllegations, Nero required practice tapes to monitor ML's behavior and ML made inappropriate jokes about it. I also find it weird the reporter didn't explain anything about whether Nero did actually ask for practice tapes or why. Lack of context is curious here, but multiple players do confirm the comment so I have zero doubt that it happened).
- He also has multiple players confirm that ML complained a lot about his boss, though no specifics that multiple attest to. This goes on in almost every workplace in America - people complain about their bosses to their equals and even to their subordinates (think about any big corporations where employees bitch about directives from higher-ups).
That's not really news, but what would be news is the use of homophobic jokes and comments in this context.
- It should be noted that he does not cite multiple players as saying the comments are homophobic, Rather he has multiple sources saying that the comments are just "inappropriate" (easy to see a player who doesn't like his coach's harsh style, but who likes the AD finding it inappropriate that the coach is ripping the AD to them, but that doesn't confirm homophic insults).
- The article is certainly written to suggest multiple players confirm repeated homophobic comments about Nero, but when you read it closely, you can see that the reporter actually stopped short of this allegation and went only with inappropriate. Why? Was this because the school actually got the Post to water it down a bit? Was it because the players didn't actually confirm repeated homophobic comments? Is it just sloppy writing? Hard to say.
Ultimately, I think ML's ability to stay at GW comes down to 4 things:
1) Do players believe that he repreatedly used homophobic slurs or just that they thought it was inappropriate for ML to rag on his boss constantly to them? If multiple players confirm that he was repeatedly trashing a gay employee with homophobic insults since the early Title IX investigation, he's gone.
2) Either way, do Nero and the AD believe ML can learn to stop making homophobic jokes/comments or, if they don't believe that really happened, can he learn to stop attacking his boss to players. If the they beleive he can grow, they may let him stay.
3) Does Nero beleive he can repair the relationship with ML (and does he want to?
4) Even if they think the story is overblown and Nero believes he can work with ML, doe they beleive the PR damage is so severe that they need to let ML go anyway?
To me, those are the four questions the univeristy is likely answering now.
thinker7/23/2016 7:33:23 PM
I'm definitely not naive. I would bet that I've seen more and been through more "real world shit" than anybody on this board.
The Post talks of at least 7 witnesses. The Post talked to all of them. They know who those people are. They are not anonymous to the Post - they just aren't named in the article. To keep saying the Post is relying on anonymous people is disingenuous. It conveys that it might be some random people. It's not it's 5 specific players and at least 2 specific staff.
I have repeatedly said that the "abusive" language used with the players - whatever it is that ML actually said -- which none of us know - is not the most problematic thing in this. It's the stuff related to Nero. I think the salacious nature of the alleged language is as troubling as the allegation that he was seriously disrespecting and undermining his boss with the players.
I understand you want to defend ML and such - but I'm not attacking him. What we think about the Post or ML or the players or about anything else is not going to play a role in how this turns out.
I think you done a great job in analyzing the key factors in how this will turn out. It's going to be a difficult process to figure things out.
And whatever gets decided, if ML is going to continue to have a successful basketball career, he is going to have to find a way to adopt a gentler and less "intense" tone in his coaching. Regardless of what he said or didn't say.
GW Alum Abroad7/23/2016 7:34:17 PM
There is also the possibility that some of the comments were too vulgar and/or libelous to be printed so editors chose to reference them but not spell them out (kind of like the debate over printing or not Veep Cheeny's f-bomb).
ziik7/23/2016 7:39:56 PM
I wonder if this story is one that can be defended, or, affected by remedial measures and redeemed attitudes. Or, is has the bahanior goe so far as to be inndensible, and unredeemable. If the conclusion is the coach cannot be changed, that seems to be it. If there is wiggle room, it is not yet clear,
Tennessee Colonial7/23/2016 7:42:59 PM
Washington Post? Doesn't the Washington Post hate GW?
bobo7/23/2016 8:01:10 PM
It may be hard for the outside investigators to truly get the answers to FQ's first question about if multiple players confirm vulger and repeated homophobic comments by ML. It's one thing for a player to talk to a reporter annonomously before the story is printed. It's probably hard for anyone to anticipate the full ramifcations when speaking one on one with a reporter. But it's different after the story comes out and you see what a big deal it is and that people might lose theiir jobs over it. You can certainly see people suddenly forgetting the details to matters and simply want to move on with thier lives and careers without getting caught in the middle of a full blown Title IX investigation.
The rest of FQs question would remain, largely does Nero and GW think ML can be redeamed and do they still want to work with him.
220.127.116.117/23/2016 8:04:30 PM
bo knows is disingenous? what took you so long to come by that revelation
Mike K7/23/2016 8:06:14 PM
I pretty much agree with FQ at this point.
In 2016 you can't make jokes about people's sexual orientation. If he did that, the University will have to take some action and we will be looking for a new coach.
As far as being hard on or "mean" to athletes.....they should be thankful they live in 2016 and and not the 1970s.
thinker7/23/2016 8:53:26 PM
We live in the times that we live in and ML and everyone else has to accept that. No one was ever moved by the argument that "when I was a kid I had to walk 5 miles to school uphill both ways." No one ever ate their vegetables because "there are starving kids in Africa." Kids just care how they are treated not how someone else was treated in a different place or at a different time.
I really would like for ML to be able to stay at GW. But his style - no doubt informed by Gary Williams and also followed by his boy Jimmy Patsos (who I have heard is even "worse" (whatever that means) than ML doesn't really fly any more. It just isn't acceptable in our culture any more - regardless of what anyone here thinks our culture should approve of.
Regardless, after this is done, whether ML is still at GW or wants to go elsewhere, he's going to have a different standard applied to him and he's not going to be able to continue with his "intense" style.
The clear implication of the information that has come out is that GW already seriously warned him to change his style. Presumably that's why his practices were being taped and why someone from the AD's office went on all road trips. He's ALREADY been warned.
Maybe how this all plays out isn't about what he specifically said. Maybe GW's decision is going to connect with "did ML adhere to the agreement that we made when we warned him last year."
Bo Knows7/23/2016 9:00:36 PM
Thinker, you keep saying because the Post knows who they are we don't need to or it isn't relevant that we don't know. Really? So we allow the Post to be the arbiter of the reliability of anonymous sources? Ever heard of Rolling Stone and UVA? How about Jayson Blair? Should I go on? Sorry there is no presumption that the Post is an honest broker. The 4th estate has frequently proved its ability to stretch or twist or invent the truth. But here is one fact the story got flat wrong. ML was investigated following 2914-15 and was cleared. The idea that he was watched or under restriction in 2015-16 is patently false. How do I know this? Today copies of letters from the University were made public. So if the Post got that wrong then what else might they have gotten wrong? The Post can hide behind anonymous sources. But a man should not lose his job because a reporter says trust me I have the goods I just can't show them to you.
ziik7/23/2016 9:11:58 PM
Bo, something happened here, unlike at UVa, where it seemed the story was a fabrication.
Maybe something real bad happened, maybe just some hurt feelings. But, something happened. It need to be uncovered, examined remedied, or excised. Hopefully remedied. But, something did happen.
Years ago, I made some snotty remarks about a boss. I made them, really, to a guy I thought I was pals with. Well, he was a suckup. So, I got in a little trouble. I learned from my mistake.
Mike seems to have been warned once. I hope his slipup is of a different, less significant sort.
Bo Knows7/23/2016 9:42:42 PM
Ziik the UVA story did not seem like a fabrication on its face until other facts started appearing.
Also you are factually wrong ... ML was not warned. To the contrary he was absolved. I have seen the letter.
I am quite sure ML said some the things that players did not like. That's not a news flash. That's coaching. The question is and has been did those things cross the line and that depends completely on the veracity of the complainants. Part of assessing veracity is figuring out if an agenda is present. The old coach's refrain that it always relates to playing time is a good place to start.
thinker7/23/2016 9:43:48 PM
I didn't say we don't want to know or that it isn't relevant who the witnesses are. But that's how the system works. That Rolling Stone made some truly egregious errors is undeniable. Jayson Blair - yes he was a fraud. Those cases and any other that you want to list don't change anything. The only due process as it were that ML is entitled to from the Washington Post is that he can sue them if he thinks he was libeled. I'll bet you eleventy million dollars he won't sue the Post and if he did he would lose. Because that's the system we have.
As far as ML losing his job, based on some "sloppy" journalism (I don't agree that it's sloppy) -- He's not going to lose his job because of the article. If he loses his job it will be because the investigation reveals problems that can't be overcome. I truly do not believe that GW will fire him because of PR issues if they actually want to keep him. PR might be the pretense to fire him perhaps if that's what they wanted to do anyway.
If there is a factual mistake(s) in the article -- does that change anything? Absolutely not, unless the mistake is central to the most basic premise. In my very diverse life experience, I have been on the inside of something relatively big that was reported in the media about 5-6 times. There was never a case where I knew everything that went on that the media didn't make at least one or two mistakes in the article. If someone wrote an article about their own marriage I'll bet you that their wife would find a number of mistakes. It is the nature of things. If you don't get that then you're naive. It's extremly hard to go into an extremely complicated thing like this and get all the details right. That virtually never happens.
ML is a very prominent public figure who is one of the most important faces of GW who makes $500K or so a year in one of the most intesely scrutinized professions in the most political city in the world. When you sign up for that you get LOTS more attention and focus than you would get at Vermont or Catholic or as an assistant at Maryland. Is it fair? Don't know and don't care. That's the deal he signed up for so that's the way it is. Lots of things aren't fair.
I also have a long history on this board of not liking the way that ML has managed his PR stuff with the team and school. When you don't have the best PR attitude in these circumstance then you are more at risk for PR disasters.
Still, I would strongly hope that things play out in a way that allows him to continue at GW.
Bo Knows7/23/2016 10:11:22 PM
Thinker you have this very clinical way of looking at this from a journalist perspective. Unfortunately reporters are subject to same frailties as anyone else. Especially when subject to anonymous charges. And if there really are 7 witnesses why the necessary anonymity? It would seem the sheer numbers much like the Cosby women would enable people to come forward without fear of reprisal. Just exactly how do you prove a negative? If/When your own nuts are in a similar vice perhaps you will have an epiphany.
18.104.22.1687/23/2016 10:12:41 PM
Bo knows. You are an absolute clown.
NewGWFan7/23/2016 10:14:56 PM
Ok it's been like three days or something since the news broke. After letting the story develop a bit here's my thoughts after reading and listenting to just about all the information out on the topic. Including the Wapo article, local radio (ESPN 980 & Sports Junkies), ESPN article, NBC Sports Pod, plus Social Media reaction.
1) ML certainly has a reputation of being a very difficult coach. Not a question. He is obsessed with basketball and winning. He expects a lot out of his players in the classroom, on the court, and in the community. Some players have excelled in this environment while others haven't and have left the program. No problems with this.
2) Transfers - He has left a wake of transfers from his time at UVM through GW. Is the number significant, I don't know someone can do the math and compare against national trend but I would wager it's on par maybe slightly above average. Players have left because they are sick of him or don't like him or have desire to play at different program or position. No problem.
3) My Analysis - I know the Sports Junkies aren't the most objective audience, but they had John Feinstein on the program on Friday and I thought this was a very interesting interview. It was clear both the junkies and Feinstein have spoken to ML since the news. Let's try to parse facts out of the Wapo story and what Feinstein discussed. The players clearly went to the NCAA to report an infraction in 2015 which was investigated and deemed to not be worth exploring further.
Feinstein is in an interesting position being employed by the Wapo. He admitted as much and has some insight into how the story came to the attention of the WAPO. He did not seem comfortable with the annonimoty given to the players. He seems to indicate that the story is being driven by one former player and came in via a note from the player and he question why it wasn't given to the beat writers who cover GW or Feinstein himself and landed with Kilgore and he was told to look into it. I thought this was very interesting Feinstein says that ML refutes the salacious details about the AD. They don't address the quotes concerning the food stamps or transgender league which I found interesting.
They then compare the dynamics between Gary Williams and Debbie Yow at UMD strongly implying a rift between Nero and ML and that there may be leaks from the athletic department.
These allegations happened a while ago, were looked into and found to be not worth looking into further and apparently the player felt whitewashed by the university. To me the player or someone close to him took this story to the media. The post did a disservice by granting annonimoty and not presenting the other side of the story. I think this will die down but the relationship between ML and Nero is now fascinating. With a lame duck president to broker the peace between these two. It will be interesting to watch this power struggle. I hope that Nero didn't have any hand in this story in any way. It's clear ML did not.
Martiniboy7/23/2016 10:20:24 PM
Some context: the "transgender league" comment was made during peak of the Caitlyn Jenner hype when a player came to practice wearing bright pink Nike Air Rajon Rondo sneakers. Everyone, including said player, got a great laugh out of the comment and play went on.
22.214.171.1247/23/2016 10:24:56 PM
pray tell, what explains away the comments made to players about Nero masterbating to them? also I do agree bo knows is an absurdly biased clown
Bo Knows7/23/2016 10:56:28 PM
Poor poster is too dumb to even have a screen name.
Bo Knows7/23/2016 11:01:04 PM
Poster thanks for playing ... You have no facts. You have an agenda.
BACCAS927/24/2016 12:30:57 AM
Colonial Army post on Facebook
The Colonial Army is committed to fostering an inclusive environment for students and student athletes, as well as working closely with the Department of Athletics to build campus community. Recent news reports regarding the GW Men's Basketball Team have threatened that environment and the Colonial Army supports our students and student athletes who have been affected as well as the staff members in the Department of Athletics.
We expect that the Title IX office, Department of Athletics, and other university officials will complete a full investigation of all the claims filed and will treat all parties fairly. In the coming weeks, may we remember that what brings us together is more powerful than what threatens to tear us apart. Each member of our community deserves to feel safe and to know that they have an army of support behind them at all times. We also want to remind students that the Mental Health Services hotline (202) 994-5300) is always available for any individual who would like to discuss this situation and its impact on them.
hmm7/24/2016 12:38:19 AM
thinker7/24/2016 1:10:42 AM
You know nothing about where my nuts have or haven't been so you shouldn't comment on that.I have unbelievable empathy for victims. I just don't see ML as a victim here.
It's not for you to judge why the witnesses wish to remain anonymous to the public. They are not anonymous to the Post and are likely known to GW too. They are not being cowardly any more than you are by anonymously criticizing them for wanting to retain their anonymity. If the manly thing is to declare oneself publically and there are no repurcussions, then you should show these young men the way by posting here under your real name.
If you want to mistrust players, staff, and posters because they are anonymous and have agendas -- well you are anonymous and you have a widely understood agenda as well. You have made it very clear that you are friends with ML and every one here reads your posts understanding what your agenda is. Now I for one see nothing wrong with you wanting to defend the program and your friend. I value reading your posts even though I don't know who you are and even though I know you take it upon yourself to vigorously defend ML on virtually any topic that arises. Even though you have an agenda, I find most of your posts interesting and informative.
And honestly how anonymous are the witnesses really? It's not like trying to figure out who Deep Throat was - their names are going to be found on the list of who transferred out, who is still on the team now, staff that left and staff that are still with the team. That's a pretty small list.
And are you seriously going to claim that it makes some huge difference if Savage is one of the witnesses instead of Paul? That we can't understand any of this unless we know if it was Cimino instead of Darian? Stop with the notion that the witnesses are some mysterious visitors from another galaxy that we can't possibly comprehend until we know their identity.
The Cosby rape victims almost entirely remained silent for years - even decades for fear of all kinds of repurcussions. I have no idea where your nuts have been but unless you have suffered as a victim of abuse then you likely aren't in a position to understand the dynamics of who comes forward, and why they do, and when they do and how they do.
But I definitely get it - you're worried about your friend. And you should be.
Bigfan7/24/2016 5:15:37 AM
Momentary break from the story's many shortcomings that have us reading tea leaves instead of getting any sort of real picture.
What about this Colonial Army statement? Maybe not reading it correctly and hope so, for otherwise, one weeps for the future of the Republic.
But it reads like they are concerned about people NOT INVOLVED, but who have MERELY HEARD the reports of situation.
If that is correct, unless this thing has spiraled into something else that we don't know about that would be major mass felonies: TRIGGER WARNING: how overwrought and overdramatic.
Bringing the community together. Feeling safe against HEARING ABOUT inappropriate comments.
This is hugely insulting to campuses and communities across the world that have suffered real tragedies.
Seriously, if reading it right, this pompous statement is not a microggression, it is a macroagression. Make it sound like the aftermath of Nice or Orlando. Wildly inappopriate.
And besides, it's the summer. By and large, for the vast majority of regular GW students, there is NO SCHOOL.
Mea culpa if not reading this correctly. One begs to be wrong in this. Hoping it is only from late night hallucinations forged from a lack of sleep over this whole affair, like an apparition appearing to Ebenezer Scrooge.
A thousand apologies would be gratefully given to know that this is not what it means--and these are not the people who will be holding the line between us and our enemies as we rock in our chairs in our old age.
But otherwise, this statement in a nutshell gives real insight into this whole drama.
Maine Colonial7/24/2016 5:28:12 AM
The investigation by outside counsel will produce a report similar to this one LINK on Doug Wojcik, who was fired by the College of Charleston.
If GW's players and staff report that Mike was consistently abusive like Wojcik was then Knapp will have no choice but to fire him despite his success in turning around the program and winning the NIT.
I imagine the investigation will take at least a month to conduct the interviews and draft the report so I would guess Mike will still be going to Japan and Nero will be going too.
126.96.36.1997/24/2016 7:20:47 AM
Normally you would assume the Post sports editor Matthew Vita would have assigned Kilgore to the story. Vita has an unusual background for a sports editor: LINK Kilgore might have been selected because he didn't know Lonergan and they anticipated the story would blow up and go national and they wanted to protect their regular beat writers' relationships with GW.
The Dude7/24/2016 8:31:15 AM
There really is a crazy thing going on around campuses with this micro aggression bullshit. Reading that post from the Colonial Army is about all you need to know about that. Bill Maher attacks that softness weekly and I see it on FB, incredible wussification of our youth to encourage that weak ass give me my security blanket to hold onto through life BS.
That being said, if you've it to an upper tier D1 program, you're a tough hombre (with rare exceptions, sure) the things that are required to get this far athletically, just toughen you. A few have painted today's college players as part of this soft millenial culture and I don't buy it for a second, of course a lot of that is being typed by 65 year old guys on their couches who never made it past middle school sports, haven't worked out in 3 decades and pay people to mow the lawn and shovel their snow.
bobo7/24/2016 8:44:53 AM
Interesting report on fired Charleston coach Doug Wojcik. 10 annonomous players, 5 on record players, 5 annonomous employess and a few on record employees speaking against Wojcik. They did have a couple of assistant coaches speaking in favor of Wojcik. They describe Wojcik as a total prick, constantly yelling, screaming and bulliing players.
Among the things the investigation concluded were likely correct, Wojcik said the following things to the players: Calling the players such things as dumb,” “dumbass,” “idiot,” “stupid,” and variations of such words that include profanity. It is likely that such names also included “pussy” and “cunt".
It is likely that Coach Wojcik called one player a “fag” or “faggot” on at least one occasion and likely on multiple occasions.
Made statements such as “fuck you, ”“go fuck yourselves,” and “fuck you mother fucker” to players.
Told players “your parents did you a disservice [in the way they raised you]” and “your parents raised you the wrong way” and “your parents have lied to you” and “your mom is negative” and “your dad is a prick” and “your parents failed you” and “your parents did a terrible job raising you” and other similar comments.
Topics likely include family, upbringing, girlfriends, and culture, telling a player his cultural beliefs are stupid and that telling players something to the effect of “No one likes you” and “everyone in the stands hates you”; and (6) Coach Wojcik stating, in reference to a player, "I don’t care if he [aplayer] fucking dies.”
Making threats such as “I’ll rip your fucking throat out” and “I’ll kick your fucking ass” and “I’m gonna break your fucking neck.”
Wojcik was only at the College of Charleston for 2 years and probably didn't build up any base of support to speak out in favor of him after the allegations came out.
Maine Colonial7/24/2016 8:51:30 AM
In 17 days the team is scheduled to take off for Japan. Between now and then the team will probably hold at least a half dozen practices. During the next week to two weeks the outside counsel will be conducting the investigation. When the team departs for Japan, will Mike and Patrick both be on the plane or just one of them or neither of them? Would President Knapp let the team fly to Japan to represent GW and hold any decision until the team returns? Or does the decision need to be made before the team departs? If the suspense is killing me I can't imagine what the returning GW players and the rising freshmen and their parents must be going through.
Rich Maier7/24/2016 9:39:03 AM
Bo, you said you were shocked about these accusations.If you have some much information about what happened how could you be shocked? Unless you are ML you have no idea what he said to players. He can line up many character witnesses but unless they are with him every moment they don't know either. Not saying ML did these things but someone who is shocked about these allegations and then says he has the facts is just telling two different stories.
GW 697/24/2016 9:56:34 AM
Don't have much to say about the situation.---but I must say I am very impressed by last posts of Thinker,Bigfan and Dude.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 9:57:30 AM
Thinker you may have just won the award for setting up the all-time false equivalency. I am not a party to the matter. I am a commentator on a anonymous niche message board reacting to a public story. My comments here will have no real world implications and cause no one to keep or lose their employment. I am certain that the investigation will not include any of my comments here. Yet this somehow is the same as iniating an entirely anonymous report in a public newspaper that has the implied if not express intent of affecting the employment status of ML and will have real world imolications. If you can't parse the difference between those two anonymous statuses then we should probably stop this discussion because we are entering the absurd now.
That aside I mistrust the Post article at this point for four main reasons taken together:
1. Not a single witness would go on record. This differs from every other case of reported alleged coach misconduct that I am aware of. Sure there might be one somewhere but the vast majority of these stories quote someone on the record.
2. Despite the fact that the Post was able to find at least three players and others who support ML 24 hours later, no attempt was made to seek out these players prior to the initial article.
3. The Post article contained a big error that stated that ML was essentially bein watched in 2015-16 by direction of the Unversity as a result of a 2014-15 investigation. There is a letter from the University Provost clearing ML of any wrongdoing in this regard and making clear there was no further action to be taken. Thus, the university did an investigation but the Post reporter with no new information relating to any player during 2015-16 only apparently to PN tried to tie everything together in a disingenuous way. If his article had only claimed that ML made remarks about PN to players then at least we could have a discussion about whether that was said because unless the University covered something up that is the only issue that remains.
4. I have known ML for many years dating back to Catholic. I know and have coached several players that have played for him at Catholic, Vermont and GW. My information is not strictly out of loyalty to ML. As you might imagine I have tried to check this story out. All of my sources say while ML can be very demanding as a coach that is not something (the PN comments) he would ever discuss with his team or even make a joke about. Another point that was made to me was that most of ML's meetings with players were not one on one but with assistants present. Further ML and I have discussed his relationship with AD 100 times or more privately. Never once did he say anything like that to me even though he said other contractual things and administrative things that he did not agree with. And he never said anything that was disrespectful if PN personally. I can promise ML knows I am far more trustworthy than any of his players.
So taken together all of the above suggests strongly this is a hatchet job which the Post played a role knowingly or unknowingly. Is it impossible that ML said those things? Of course not. All men are fallible, But knowing what we know at this point and what I know independently, it would be shocking to me if this turned out to be true to nearly the extent presented in the article.
Maine Colonial7/24/2016 10:13:25 AM
On just the basis of the language they regularly use during practices and at games, I can't imagine there are more than a dozen D1 head coaches who wouldn't look bad under such intense scrutiny if their players were completely honest. Even Coach K, who graduated from Army and must have been regularly subjected to abuse by Bobby Knight, unleashes salvos of foul language pretty much every game on national television. I would love to read a transcript of what he says during an average game. And I can't imagine Coach K is too different in practice and in the locker room. How many coaches would look good after a similar investigation? I'm not minimizing what Mike might have said or done, I am just questioning whether pretty much all coaches use similar tactics. Heck, Red Auerbach might have been one of the toughest on his players. How many NCAA championships have been won by coaches who didn't use similar language? It looks like John Wooden may have been one of the only ones: LINK
Rich Maier7/24/2016 10:22:42 AM
Bo, if you know so much about the story please end the suspense. Name the 5 players and 1 former Men's basketball staff who are accusing ML of these awful things. If you can do that everyone will have one huge question answered. If you can't well then......you have nothing IMO. I am entitled to an opinion right?
Bo Knows7/24/2016 10:37:08 AM
Rich do you really think that would be helpful here? I think you can make an educated guess on your own. Not that hard to figure out really given the timing of the article. Plus all 5 are apparently not attesting to same specific conduct as I mentioned above but different aspects of the story.
Rich Maier7/24/2016 10:47:40 AM
Bo Knows7/24/2016 11:04:21 AM
So if I post their names don't you think someone will allege an orchestrated campaign of retaliation next because they were outed?
thinker7/24/2016 11:06:27 AM
I won't belabor this any more. You have a fair amount of credibility with me - despite the fact that you choose to retain your anonymity here. Despite the fact tht you are friends with ML. Your beliefs seem to me to be heartfelt and sincere. BUT I'm not prepared to say for myself that I am confident that nothing truly problematic was said by ML because you say so.
The Post found these allegations credible KNOWING who the witnesses are. I would really guess that Kilgore found much of what the witnesses told him to be heartfelt and sincere. And the 7 witnesses are comprised of people who would almost certainly come from a possible list of about 25 or so people so they are fundamentally less mysterious than you are. And yet I, at least still, find you credible. BUT that's still not enough
Again, it doesn't matter if the Post got something wrong. Stories like this ALWAYS get something wrong. Maybe the University was no longer "investigating" ML at that point in time but was still "monitoring" him.
It's your absolute right to mistrust the Post or the media in general.I have read the Post, at least in part, almost every day since 1972, and I believe that they are more careful and professional than virtually any other paper in America. Still I know they make mistakes on ocassion.
So as far as this line of the discussion, I conclude that you are pretty credible to me on this; 7 annonymous witnesses are pretty credible; the Post is pretty credible. So I'm not sure what is going on here and I don't know what ML said or didn't say and I don't know how this will turn out or how it should turn out. And I truly don't know how anybody else here on the board could really know either.
I hope that the University does an extremely careful investigation and is able to figure out the truth. I hope that the University takes the results of the investigation and acts fairly and in the best longterm interests of the University (which hopefully are the same thing). I eagerly await the results of that process. I hope that the process results in circumstances where ML can continue on at GW. I hope that if ML is able to stay at GW then he is able to moderate his "intensity" going forward.
Long Suffering Fan7/24/2016 11:47:12 AM
Some context: the "transgender league" comment was made during peak of the Caitlyn Jenner hype when a player came to practice wearing bright pink Nike Air Rajon Rondo sneakers. Everyone, including said player, got a great laugh out of the comment and play went on.
I strong suspect that most of the "off color" or offensive quotes were said in a similar (non-serious) context but are now being used in support of a real agenda vs. the Coach by certain ex players or staff for real or imagined offenses committed by the coach. This is much different (and far less serious) than targeting an individual because of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
In agruing cases before the Court of Appeals, one thing the Judges frequently say is that it is impossible to read true context of a statement simply from reading words on a transcript. The same words can be said in a joking or a serious (or other) manner, but without knowing the context, it is simply hard to judge. The statement by Martiniboy demostrates that precisely.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 11:51:58 AM
Thinker just for the record. Anyone who knows me knows that I would never use the language attributed to ML. They also know that I would always protect the players first from harm both physical and mental which included me at one point in my life pulling a Jeff Van Gundy to break up an on court fight lol and in second instance defending players in a restaurant against KKK style racist taunts during a road stop in a southern state. So if I thought for a minute ML did these things to the extent reported in the Post I would have a big problem. But I take ML at his word along with the experience of my own interactions with him including attending practices that were not open to public and talking with his players. No coach who has walked the planet probably doesn't have a regret or wish they didn't say something. There is no doubt ML has said things he would not say in front of his wife or children. Every coach has me included. But and it is a big but, there is a far cry between that and some of the statements alleged. If you canvassed any team most would say they dislike the coach while they are playing for him. It just is partly because you can't play everyone and partly because of the competitive nature of everyone involved. But the real measure of a coach is how players view him after they are done and if you see the outpouring of support for ML on Facebook and elsewhere you will begin to understand. I once myself had a player whose mother confronted me and said I was abusive to her son. She got so heated that her husband literally had to pull her away. She was threatening all kinds of lawsuits and going to the papers etc. Funny thing was her son came to me when he found out and apologized for his mother. This was about 7 years ago. To this day this player stays in touch and tells me the reason he got to and through college was because he knew I had his back and I didn't let him slack. Also his mother sent me a letter a few years ago saying she was wrong and that she realizes now that I provided the structure and discipline she and her husband were unable to. Point is this isn't about me but the idea that some players and their families misconstrue the tactics as being borne of hate rather than love. I can assure you that ML does not recruit kids he hates. He is a big character and good family guy. Unfortunately and as time passes I am noticing a generational thing and not to go off on millennials but there has been a huge change in the willingness to work hard and earn playing time as well as the ability to deal with criticism. This is reflected in the college transfer rate and in the frequent switching of high schools and AAU teams. When I as a player used to go home and complain about the coach, my Dad would say two words - work harder. Today that conversation from parents is largely transfer, change teams or call a lawyer.
Skittles 7/24/2016 12:14:06 PM
one of the "in the know" posters such as myself, Bo, and anyone else who would have that information would only make things worse in doing so. So for now their lies will remain anonymous.
Rich Maier7/24/2016 12:14:48 PM
LSF, you have no idea what context things were said unless you were there. We can agree with that I assume. Were you there?
BM7/24/2016 12:44:50 PM
So you're saying five CURRENT and former players got together and lied about the Nero comments or that the WaPo is lying about their quotes?
The MV7/24/2016 12:45:07 PM
Thank you MartiniBoy and thank you LSF. It only took 21 posts and 13 hours before someone (LSF) responded to what arguably may be the most important post of this thread. Some of you seem to be so consumed with being right or stroking your own agendas that you fail to recognize context when it knocks you in the face.
If MartiniBoy's post is true, then ML's transgender comment was clearly made as an innocuous and perfectly harmless joke, directed at a player wearing bright pink sneakers, causing everyone including said player to laugh. (Seriously, posters in between MartiniBoy and LSF, how did you miss this?). So, one of two things happened. A player reported this anecdote with proper context and the Post decided to advance the story's agenda without context. Very unlikely in my mind. Or, the player gave the quote to the Post without proper context because he has it in for Lonergan for whatever reason. This makes the player disingenuous, untrustworthy, manipulative, and quite frankly, disgusting.
Now, there is always a possibility that MartiniBoy got his story wrong and anyone is free to think that. But, it sure does not sound that way. And assuming the context is correct, the player's credibility just went down the drain as far as I am concerned. This doesn't necessarily absolve Lonergan of any blame, but it sure does strengthen his case ( as other allegations may now also have been taken out of context, based on the fact that this one was.)
BM7/24/2016 1:04:35 PM
The initial comments are no a huge deal, but if reported, school should've talked with ML, which it seems it did. I'd be fine with that. The apparent reprisal and nasty comments about the AD, not so much.
Either ML is lying (trying to save his career and reputation), the five past and current players are lying (axe to grind with ML) or the WaPo is lying (trying to reverse the decline of print media?)
Skittles7/24/2016 1:22:05 PM
the second point BM. This is an agenda you'll see. Things are taken out of context and multiple quotes are complete lies.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 1:37:12 PM
Everyone keeps saying five current and former players. Stop. There is no evidence presented that all five are attesting to the PN statements or any particular incident.
Long Suffering Fan7/24/2016 1:38:43 PM
No, I wasn't there, Rich. On the other hand, based upon Martiniboy's statement, it sounds like he was there or spoke to someone who had in making his statements. The reason I suspect that the comments were not made malicoiusly was that I don't think ML is a malicous person who would use the word as a manner of verbal abuse. And therein sums up my feelings on this whole disturbing report...If the statements were made ( a big "if") but were merely off color or inappropriate, it is a non issue. In lawyer disciplinary parlance, it would warrant a private reprimand. On the other hands, if the statements, if made, were truly were verbal abuse motivated by either a desire to drive someone (player or staff) away or out of sheer bigotry, when then we would be talking disbarment.
BM7/24/2016 1:45:14 PM
Article clearly says five players corroborated the Nero-related comments.
GW 697/24/2016 2:09:06 PM
If the Nero masturbation quote is corroborated,which may be difficult,
ML is gone.Done and done.The transgender comment could be
interpreted with levity in context---the PN comment has no acceptable
context.We shall see.
GW 697/24/2016 2:11:41 PM
BM-missed your post you genius!
Rich Maier7/24/2016 2:39:34 PM
LSF, so Martiniboy was there when ML allegedly mentioned said Nero jerks off to team film. that makes no sense. I don't care who is telling the truth. That goal seems to elude many ML supporters. So I make no assumptions in this crazy story.
188.8.131.527/24/2016 2:45:22 PM
The Nero quotes in the Post were corroborated by 5 current and former players. There are many other quotes about Nero/players that did not make the paper.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 3:16:22 PM
Poster now how do you know that? One thing about some Post writers is that they are transparently stupid. If you to come on here to defend your story it may be more of a hatchet job than we thought.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 3:24:16 PM
Curiously how do five players all claim the exact same thing was said in one on one meetings? Why wouldn't he just say it to the entire team? How can player A corroborate what was said to Player B if he wasn't there? That's why I am saying there is no evidence that all 5 players are saying the exact same thing was said. That is a summary statement by Post. And why would ML tell some players this and not others?
ziik7/24/2016 4:01:30 PM
I tend to concur with Martini Boy, Bo and LSF, and their analyses. The Post story seems to smack of innuendo, and is suggestive of a plot of co-conspirators. It is hard to believe they could not get a single source to step up, given the stakes involved. It is not just a team story.
I guess, I just do not like this story.
ziik7/24/2016 4:21:12 PM
LSF--Your analogy to bar discipline prompts more thought, cause I have seen some of that sort of stuff.
I think, if it (masturbation) quote were made about a judge in his open court, you'd get suspension, and ordered therapy. Not loss of license.
I see this matter, even if it all is true, deserves a lessor sanction, with a warning and some sort of therapy.
Of course, it if more like "That fucker has me on suspension from the last time, and he is just sitting around whacking off to my practice tapes." That would be open, repeated contempt. Worthy of job loss, severe loss of financial package.
SO far, even if true, we have insubordination of a relatively minor sort.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 5:32:49 PM
Correct ziik. Here's another question for the doubters. So let's concede that the five former or current players feel they could not go public. You mean to tell me they couldn't find one other player over the course of 3 schools and 23 years to go on the record about his behavior! There must be more than a hundred former players coached by Lonergan - many in this area.
Free Quebec7/24/2016 5:38:37 PM
For those arguing about what's corrorborated and what's not, here's a shorter version of what I posted upthread:
- The transgender comment. (Martiniboy provides a plauisble context, but who knows).
- The comment about Nero masturbating to practice tapes.(seems pretty clear he said this per many witnesses, but again, we don't have context other than that he allegedly has a problem with Nero).
- That some players felt he crossed the line from abusive to mean spirited.
- That others don't feel he crosses that line.
- That he complained about his boss a lot.
Not corroborated (at least according to the article):
- That he repeatedly used homophobic insluts toward Nero (reporter stopped short of that, only saying players agreed he made inappropriate comments - but we don't know if inappropriate means homophobic or just that it made the players who didn't like ML uncomfortable to have him complaining about Nero).
Again, this comes down, probably to the school figuring out what the heck the reporter meant when he used vague words like "inappropriate" comments about Nero. The article suggests he means homophobic, but it doesn't really say that.
But for those saying that these are lies - what exactly are you saying are lies?
1) Are you alleging that he never made the transgendered joke or the comment about Nero masturbating to the tapes? Are you alleging that he never complained about Nero to players? Given the number of players corroborating that these things happened, I think it'll be tough to claim these are lies.
2) Or are you saying that the general charge that he mistreats players or is mean-spirited is a lie? That may be in the eye of hte beholder - not so much a lie as a matter of perception.
3) Finally, are you sayig it's a lie that he uses homophobic insults toward Nero? To be fair, that specific charge is not corroborated by the article, so you might have a case that it's false to suggest he did; but you also have to recognize that it's possible he made several such comments without realizing it and that players genuinely took offense to it.
Or, am I missing something. what exactly are you saying is a lie?
LA Fan7/24/2016 5:46:40 PM
I am curious how the lawyers will handle this. Will they formally depose current and past players? If they do that, and put a tape recorder in the room, are players going to modify their stories knowing that they are putting their names on record? What if a current player says something negative about ML, and ML stays? If ML hears that players testimony wouldn't his attitude towards that player change dramatically. Also what role will ML's attorney play? Will they have the opportunity to cross examine these players? I could go on, and I imagine there are 5 or 6 attornies on this board (as you can probably tell I am not).
thinker7/24/2016 6:12:17 PM
You say "anyone who knows me . . ." but I don't know you. I'd be happy to know you and you to know me but until that time, the only context I have about you is what you've posted here over time. You seem pretty credible to me but you are really only offereing your opinion about what you believe ML did or didn't say. It's true that the witnesses in this situation are not known to me either. They were known to the Post. They are likely known to GW. And obviously most of the witnesses are going to be players who I at least know who they are.
None of us can really know exactly what was said over time except the actual people who were there. Even then it will still be extremely difficult even for GW to figure out exactly what went on because that's almost always how these kinds of things go. That's why I will of course withhold.judgement until a more thorough investigation is completed.
And it's not for me to decide what the appropriate line for a coach to cross or not cross. GW will make that decision and all the discussion about soft kids or millenials or old school etc. doesn't really matter.
The Dude7/24/2016 6:14:18 PM
Doc 69, thank you. BM, very solid analysis. Rich, strong points as always. That's all I got to offer, I'm heat stroked after 5 games in temps that would make the cast of Ishtar feel uncomfortable, The Qataris jealous, and turn a beer into a can of piss in 15 minutes.
Bo Knows7/24/2016 6:24:27 PM
FQ, you are missing the point. No one here absolutely knows what is a lie or not unless you are either ML, the players referenced or were present. But there is equally no evidence that they are truths.
What I have consistently stated is that there is of yet no actionable evidence of wrongdoing by ML. Saying an article is a hatchet job can mean many things including lies, misstatements, mistakes or sloppy analysis/conclusions. I think there may be some of both but time will tell but I can't at this point tell you absolutely because those of us defending ML are put in the unenviable position of having to prove a negative to satisfy some here.
But what we do know is as follows:
1. ML has apparently denied making these statements (the ones referencing PN). So interpretation or not there is first the question of whether they were ever uttered in any context. Clearly the truth is one place or the other. But there seems to be the thinking among some that it must be true because it appeared in the Post based on anonymous sources that Post has summarized. Anonymous sources as I am sure you are aware are fully protected from the consequences of their statements because the Post will not be required to divulge them. Contrast that with ML who must go on the record. Recall that "Jackie" told us she was raped by certain fraternity members at UVA. At the time, it was believed on its face. Of course, Jackie wasn't her real name and as it turned out she wasn't raped, at least not there.
2. There is already an established untruth in the article whether through mistake or through intention. The University terminated its investigation of ML following the 2014-15 season and found no wrongdoing. There is a letter supporting this from GW. You can queston whether the investigation was thorough or not, but you cannot question its conclusion.So heading into the 2015-16 season there was no issue for ML.
3. As I consistently have said, this all comes down to whether ML utered the statements against PN or something else happened during 2015-16. If he did not, then this will fade quickly. If he did, then only then we get to LSF, Martinboy and MV's context and explanation.
Perhaps I am old school and perhaps it is my experience but I get almost daily reports of wrongdoing by others in my company. The ones I take seriously are the ones where someone comes and puts their name on it. The note slipped under the door, the anonymous email etc. just doesn't cut it. It's simply not fair to ask someone to prove a negative when we aren't able to assess the veracity of the complainant(s). I think way too much deference is being given to one single person (the Post reporter) to arbitrate the facts especially given the explosive and potentially consequential nature of the story.
So for me, on one hand, I have ML, a real live individual, whom I have been able to know, watch and assess for a long time as have many of you. On the other, I don't know who or what we have and neither does anyone else here. We have maybe 5 shadows and one individual trying to make them come to life. If that changes then perhaps I will reassess. But until you are willing to put your name on it I can only assume there is a reason why not. When these players say fear of reprisal perhaps it is not reprisal against them in a playing context but moreso in a legal context - defamation. If ML's conduct was so egregious a player had to go to therapy, surely his parents would sue the school - no? I would.
To me, without more, this is as plausible a rational as any for what is occuring: Having failed to get the University to agree with the underlying charges following an investigation, the aggrieved player(s) or parent went to the Post hoping to achieve by innuendo the same effect by adding some explosive rhetoric. Everyone knows - even kids - that there are now four holy grails of falls from grace for higher profile individuals - physical abuse, racism, anti-LGBTQ, and sexual harrassment.
So in sum, the Post article without more is getting way too much deference here and that has been my point from the beginning.
JWF7/24/2016 6:31:57 PM
Last year I was criticized when I said this reminds me of the Gimelstob situation. Before Gimelstob resigned similar allegations were made in the Post. At the time Bilsky was more than prepared to bring Gimo back. Also that situation never came close to the accusations that Lonergan's players made. You can see by the way he coaches that he is unable to maintain even a modicum of poise and that is reflected in the players' attitudes. Swan and Jorgensen have high level D-1 talent and are likely to succeed at their next programs. The blessing in disguise here is that if he survives this he may realize the error of his ways and make some long overdue changes.
GW 697/24/2016 6:41:20 PM
involuntary therapy is a therapists worst nightmare.The patient
doesn't really want to be there ,and more often than not just goes
through the motions of working on their issues.I don't do that kind
of work,but it's not difficult to find a therapist who does for a variety
of reasons;financial,delusions of grandeur(they are special healers
and can help everyone).and of course,in this case,working with a celebrity.
GW 697/24/2016 6:46:04 PM
Faith is necessary but not sufficient.
Free Quebec7/24/2016 6:49:34 PM
Bo, it wasn't you that used lies. My questions were addressed to those who did, like Skitttles, Hoopfan and whoever else. Skittles repeatedly referred to lies.
bobo7/24/2016 7:15:25 PM
Since these allogations are now under investigation by an outside law firm, the WaPo story will become backround. The "facts" of the matter will be layed out by the outside council. Like the Doug Wojcik investigation at C of Charleston, there likely will be annonoumous player allogations.
The Wojcik investigation had 10 annonomous players, 5 on record players and several annonomous staff making damaging claims against the coach. Most of the truly harmful claims came from annonomous sources. The attorney firm found them credible and fired the coach. So the players will never have to be publicly named and, since it's a Title IX case, shouldn't ever have to go public. But the investigators will know their identities and can judge their credibility.
Bo Knows (like the rest of us) will likely never get to judge the credibility of the accusers. The people paid to do so will. We will likely get to read the report after it has been released and can either agree or disagree with it. "Poster" says there was additonal ML comments that didn't make the paper. Probably true. There may be more players speaking out against ML if the investigators question every GW player over the last 4-5 years. Several other players will probably come to ML's defense. Same for the staff.
My guess is it will be a difficult call and GW will have to decide if they want to continue to work with ML and if ML can convince them he won't put the university in embarassing situations in the future. Most importantly, does Nero want to continue to work with ML. If ML's "masterbation" comment on Nero is beleived by investigators it will larely fall to Nero (as the victim in this case) if he wants ML gone or feels that they can work together.
Free Quebec7/24/2016 7:36:41 PM
Well put, Bobo.
Long Suffering Fan7/24/2016 7:36:53 PM
I am, by nature, a worrier. My worst nightmare right now (other than the presidential election outcome)...A combination of the school itself coming out looking bad (they knew but swept under the rug) after further investigation, combined with a men's basketball program that notwithstanding the on ourt successes consistently underperforms off court and a new president that may not see men's basketball at GW the same as the outgoing president.
Now, can someone explain to me what an "outside" lawyer is. Obviously it is not the school's in house counsel, but is "outside" suppose to mean "independent", or objective, or as repersenting (meaning advocating) GW's interests.
GW 697/24/2016 7:40:46 PM
Some of you seem to believe that IF the Nero comments are
corroborated he might be able to remain HC.Really?.Maybe I'm crazy.
It seems a bridge to far for me. My wife is an HR exec and says not
a chance in the cultures she's been involved with.How GW could
sell this(keeping him if true) would be a total program killer and horrible message.No therapy if not corroborated,fire him if it is.
The Dude7/24/2016 7:47:06 PM
Agree with Doc, floored some think he could survive corroboration of some of the most damning allegations. The investigation would have to find that the most if not all of those were untrue/likely untrue/truth unknown.
LA Fan7/24/2016 8:40:26 PM
I think corroboration of the Nero comments by a couple of the players and/or staff would be enough. It wouldn't matter what Nero thought about working together with ML. That would be the end of ML coaching at GW. No mandatory counseling needed. I hope there is a way through this, but the pessimistic side of me says it will likely be corroborated. I am already wondering who will be coaching this team in Japan.
BACCAS927/24/2016 9:11:32 PM
LSF think independent counsel. That is what it means.
The Dude7/24/2016 9:24:55 PM
Hire Ken Starr? GW Law grad? Good god, no, not that guy.
Skittles7/24/2016 9:51:29 PM
yes I said lies. It's a targeted attack by someone with an agenda. Everything accused is either wildly taken out of context, only saying half the truth, or complete and utter bull. I cannot go into detail sorry but that's why I said lies. You'll see soon enough hopefully, don't have to take my word for it nor would I blame you if you didn't
hoopfan787/24/2016 9:56:54 PM
skittles, if the investigator finds that these were not lies and ML either resigns or is terminated over the next month will your opinion of this story change at all?
bobo7/24/2016 10:16:04 PM
I'm thinking that IF multiple people contend to investigators that ML said the "masterbation' and 'dating" comments about Nero, ML would explain it as a failed attempt at humor and express his deep remorse. GW COULD certainly fire him over it. But I don't think the HAVE to fire him over it. It would be GW's option.
Do they think ML can be redeamed? Do they want to fire all employees that say inappropriate things about their supervisors in private? Who's the victim? The victim would be Nero and if he says he wants ML to stay, I would think that would have power. Do they think the program would be better off long term with or without ML would be considered.
If Nero stands up there and says he thinks that ML didn't truly mean those harsh words and wants ML to stay, who are any of us to tell him differently?
Bigfan7/24/2016 10:48:06 PM
Here's the problem: the story was such an unprofessional TRIGGER WARNING piece of shit that it is four days in and no can make sense of it. Neither head nor tail.
Now, maybe I am not the wizard at understanding the media everyone else is, but shouldn't a story be clear or not be published? Didn't Ben Bradlee push Woodward and Bernstein that they weren't there yet and hold stories.
This asshat who wrote it couldn't hold Woodward or Bernstein''s pen or TRIGGER WARNING nut sac. Or an editor with an agenda (shocking given that they've now taken GW basketball twice at its height of success) shaped the story and this guy is just the idiotic vessel.
Either way, it is a joke. No, the comments are not made up, one assumes. That would be even more bizarre in a story that is already beyond the pale. But they are aided by selective editing.
And there is no fucking CONTEXT. Martini Boy provided some with the sneakers. (Thank you, Martini Boy). That sounds right because we know ML is tough and at times unpleasant, but not racist nor is he likely to be homohobic.
Bo had a very good point about the Holy Grail or third rail today, including racism and anti-LBGT. Someone set this up nicely. If it is pink sneakers, why was this not conveyed in the article. If it wasn't pink sneakers, why wasn't this conveyed in the article. What was said was no doubt printable and one can do it even with expletives deleted.
Why aren't we told what the comments were? Cannot stress enough. Not only my opinion, but a longtime journalist I know (and Maine Colonial) point out how badly this was done.
Here's how this story works. I want to say that Bo Knows and I are strange bedfellows in agreeing on this. This story, with its deliberate lack of context, would say players heard him talking about "strange bedfellows."
See? No context. From what I know, is apparently a journalistic sin to leave out context that will explain or cast a different light on comments. It is like cheating. So, these weren't made up;they were cherry picked.
More context. Is it Skylar,as someone suggested on the board pushing this? Well, Skylar was a walk-on who didn't play. Now if it is Kethan, who had his own issues, that is another things and both his talent and his issues have to be weighed. Now if PJ is the main protagonist
Who is the current player? Doubt it is Tyler or Yuta. Sina seems unlikely and is from an area where people aren''t so sensitive, but that would have to be weighed even it somehow was him. Goss doesn't play, so if him, one would have to weigh that. Matt Hart seems unlikely. But again a different situation.
And the story NEVER MAKES CLEAR when a comment comes from a current player or the former players. These articles can at least make that clear, much less other factors such as whether the player was deep bench.
Again, no reason to offer anonymity to former players. That may have been used to lure them in, but it is wrong.
And the former member of the staff. Doesn't even say coach. Was it a graduate assistant? Was it Pete Strickland? All sorts of different scenarios with different motivations not spelled out.
What about the hundreds of other players and dozens of former assistants and staff members?
What about starters Garino, Creek and Armwood?
Why weren't they contacted. Any schmuck as Kilgore describes himself (and he is indeed a prick,though a useless one) can contact them in minutes. Literally.
Why no former coaches who knew him,including the famed Gary Williams and Morgan Wooten, neither shrinking violets.
What about other coaches about dealing with millennials? Let's face it, this is a huge part of the story. They are brought up in such a participation trophy, politically correct me first environment that it is a real factor in team sports. That's really the piece.
What about GW's having half the academic All A10 team? What about all the players who stay graduating? Literally, every one of them. Tyler in Economics.
A man's livelihood is at stake here. The article deliberately paints a narrative the author wanted in spite of any positive facts, context or mitigating points.
It is not Rolling Stone, but it is in the spirit of Rolling Stone. A narrative that is too good to be spoiled with all the facts or context or checking, but just a series of accusatory half-truths.
Why wasn't the beat reporter involved. Maybe because he knew it was a radioactive piece based on a narrative or an agenda. Why only a full day afterward does anything at all appear about the postiive Garino, Creek and Armwood statements? And then only because Dan Steinberg, a decent guy with long experience with GW basketball wrote it? Doesn't that smell at all?
If they've got it, bring it on. Be the first to applaud a great piece of investigative journalism, though as one pointed out this could apply to most any coach in country and doesn't seem to happen at Georgetown or Maryland, which can do no wrong.
But hey, go for it. Get off your ass and do real reporting and tell both sides of the story with appropriate context.
But don't take down a program (twice now) with selective prosecution, half-truths and unbelievable lack of context and fairness. Especially with someone's livelihood at stake.
No matter what the true story is, it isn't there in what we have. It is a horrible shame that does a disservice to Lonergan, GW and the entire issue of coaching and abuse. These are real issues and self-serving, lazy crap like these only serves to obscure them. We can't even have a real conversation because it is all cloudy innuendo and nothing of substance.
And no, sorry, not even one minor error is acceptable in a piece like this. Certainly know journalists who live by that credo. Not "whatever" when a career and a university's reputation is at stake.
Time for those like Skittles and Bo Knows to tell us what they know to add the perspective that is so sorely lacking in this steaming pile of shitty work that was dropped on us.
Start naming names and getting the truth out, whatever it may be.
The Dude7/24/2016 11:34:03 PM
That's not how these things work. You think the WaPo should name the 5 students? Final point, somewhat ironic you bring up Watergate, you do realize that Woodward and Bernstein protected their key source's actual identity for 40+ years yes? (GW Law grad Mark Felt)
thinker7/25/2016 12:30:45 AM
Bigfan has fallen and he can't get up.
Bigfan7/25/2016 4:19:54 AM
Yes, of course,this calls for a Watergate/national security level of anonymous sourcing.
Though Woodward and Bernstein probably rarely (if they did) used five anonymous sources in a row to say the same thing on one story.
Sorry, these things are not supposed to work with totally anonymous sourcing and totally one-sided reporting.
For those fond of ad slogans, bear in mind the Post's: "If you don't get it, you don't get it."
Hoopfan787/25/2016 7:12:00 AM
Big Fan, i'll ask you the same question i've posed to others. If the invistigation finds truth to the story and ML either resigns or is removed over the next month will your opinion of the story change at all?
Also, you name a lot of names, but you do so with the assumption that all of the 5 are end of bench players. You do not know this. We haven't had that many players run through the team over the past 2 seasons. Only 3 can likely be eliminated at this time.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 9:36:01 AM
Hoopfan78 what if we turn the question the other way?
Hoopfan78 you are factually wrong - departures in last 2 years: Savage Jorgenson Griffin Bryant Swan Cimino. All but Savage and Jorgenson were end of bench players. You can eliminate Swan he is Hajj's cousin.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 9:38:20 AM
Bigfan I agree. See we can agree on something :-)
Cutis7/25/2016 9:46:02 AM
Bo knows, still didn't answer question. But you also aren't counting the players who graduated.
hoopfan787/25/2016 9:50:05 AM
(sorry last comment "cutis" was mine; not sure why it named it that.
Bo, my point is if ML is cleared and on the sideline for game 1 i will 100% agree with you. It feels like if the investigation leads the other direction and he is not with the team this fall you will blame it on the post and not on his own actions. Correct me if i'm wrong, but from your comments it sounds that way.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 10:34:42 AM
If it established that ML said the things alleged, then it's going to be a problem for ML. I said that initially a 100 posts ago lol. However, I am betting that's not going to be the case.
thinker7/25/2016 10:41:18 AM
Here's a diferent way to tell the narrative.
ML has an "intense" coaching and communication style which different people have different opinions on whether ML ever crosses the "line" or not or even what the line should be.
At some time in the past someone (player(s) and/or staff) made a complaint that ML "crossed the line."
Some type of internal investigation was done and ML and others here have said to effect of "nothing was found."
That is not correct. True ML was not fired but something was found because at that point Nero required that practices be recorded and that someone from the AD's office accompany the team on road trips. If Nero did not order these things and it is not true that practices were recorded and an AD staff person accompanied the team on trips, someone should please clarify that.
You don't take this action if you haven't discovered something that you believe to be a problem.
ML was unhappy with being monitored/supervised by his boss in this way.
Subesquently aditional people complained about the manner in which ML expressed his unhappiness with this supervision by his boss.
Some of those people were dissatisfied with the manner in which GW was handling the matter and went to the Post.
The Post interviewed at least 7 people who all in one way or another corroborated parts of the story and the Post printed the story which ML chose not to comment on before it was printed.
Now the University is engaged in 2 separate investigations: A Title IX investigation and an outside counsel investigation to examine issues outside the scope of Title IX.
It seems like both of those investigations will be looking at what ML said to whom, when and why. When those investigations are complete, the Administration will make a determination of whether ML crossed "their line." At that point ML will be exonerated, reprimanded in some way with some agreement on behavior going forward, or ML will be required to depart his job under some agreement or not.
If I have stated something here that is factually incorrect, I'd definitely appreciate a clarification. If everything I have stated is factually correct than a bunch of the discussion here is mostly irrelevant because it's not about the Post any more.
The MV7/25/2016 10:41:18 AM
Again worth pointing out that I can readily understand why the sources were granted anonymity. Not expecting anyone to be happy about this but the fear of future retribution is real and not imagined. Being labeled a snitch or whistleblower is a tough way to go through life, particularly if Lonergan ends up being exonerated. In a perfect world, people would always put their names to causes when they feel 100% that they are in the right. But this world is not perfect and being known as the tattle tale can easily impact one's future college, professional basketball, or even non-basketball professional careers.
The blame assigned to the Post stems from the fact that they should not have published this article. Feinstein said in his radio interview that there have been countless times in his career when he is provided a great quote and ends up not using it because the source will not put their name to it. Failing to use names does not automatically mean that the story is bogus but anyone should be able to see how the positioning of the article is weakened as a result. The question of whether Lonergan's actions or the Post are to blame here are not mutually exclusive. Lonergan has always been a "wear his heart on his sleeve" type and it's very hard to conclude that even if he's fully exonerated, he is not guilty of some bad judgment here. However, many on this board have predictably been too quick to take away his job without knowing the full context and factual evidence behind what really happened.
I'm of the belief that nothing I have heard gets Lonergan fired with the exception of the Nero comments if these took place as presented in the article. And even then, it would be up to Mr. Nero, who we have not heard from, to decide whether he was feeling sexually harassed or whether Lonergan was just being a jerk. If the latter, and Nero would be willing to move forward with Lonergan, then I'm not sure why he should lose his job.
Despite the quote of the former staffer (players typically transfer due to delusions of grandeur; this was not that), it's hard to fathom players coming forward and corroborating in this manner without feeling disgruntled or having ill feelings towards Lonergan. Most of the time, these are end-of-bench players but not always. Am not making any accusations but two of our more prominent players, David Pellom and Kethan Savage, left under less than stellar circumstances. Two others, Darian Bryant and Paul Jorgensen, were not an end-of-bench players but each did see their role and minutes significantly reduced before leaving the program. My point here is that guys are capable of feeling disgruntled and leaving a program for a variety of reasons, not solely because they are barely getting any playing time. I am also fascinated by the reporting of a current player who also came forward. Would love to know why he is still on the team if his head coach is such a monster.
Last point that I again feel bears repeating. I don't see this program as being sunk if Lonergan is retained from a recruiting standpoint. We have a great recruiting class (by GW's standards) coming in this year. Are we of the mindset that none of them were aware that complaints against Lonergan were launched and looked into after 2014-15? I suppose this is possible but guys do talk and it would be entirely feasible if some of our freshmen were told during visits that coach can be very tough on players at times and his behavior was even looked into recently but he's fine. We've been to three consecutive postseason tournaments and that's despite all of the lousy recruiting which some of you are so fond of pointing out.
The player who wants to be coached by Mike Lonergan, the guy who can handle criticism because it will make them mentally stronger, the guy who wants to be the best player he can be, the guy who wants to take academics seriously, and the guy who wants to play foer acoach who knows how to win....I just don't see too many of those types of players being negatively impacted by this. Maybe I am being naive about this point but I just think that most competitive players who don't need constant coddling and adulation are looking at this story and are moving away from wanting to play for a coach like Lonergan, if they thought they might in the first place.
The MV7/25/2016 10:45:31 AM
Thinker, I also find it curious that the athletic department official who shadowed the team all season did not report any wrongdoing to Nero. At least that didn't make its way into the Post story, and I would certainly believe that it would have (as it would have fit their narrative as well as anything they did publish) had this been the case.
xAC7/25/2016 10:49:32 AM
I’ve hesitated to wade into this discussion because it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. After talking to my two brothers this weekend, I concluded that it isn’t. Both brothers are GW alumni, average sports fans living in the DC area, and neither of them knew about this story. Where I live (in SEC country), no-one knows or cares about it either. The fact that there’s virtually no follow-up in the national press seems to indicate the level of importance of this. Compare that with the coverage of UNC, Baylor (football), Syracuse, Louisville, SMU, Penn State (football), etc… and we’re just a small blip on the radar. What has happened at GW is just a microcosm of the world we live in.
Verbal abuse toward subordinates – a common occurrence in sports at all levels, private industry, and civil and military service. The fact that some of the abuse may be politically incorrect is irrelevant. ANY abuse that desensitizes an individual is abuse.
Internal organizational conflict – another common occurrence that impacts the individuals of an organization, just how much depends on the intensity of the conflict.
This would normally be managed within an organization internally to start (like HR), or escalate into arbitration or go to court. The difference here is that because of the high profile of sports, the events have been sensationalized by the press—at least to those who care the most. Regardless of the outcome, this is what usually results in a “they said”, “they said” situation:
The real truth probably sits between the two sides of the story. We’ll never really know.
The point of view of each side is unlikely to be changed.
The punishment or lack of punishment will seem unfair to many, depending on their POV.
In the end, however, the sky is not falling. GW basketball will go on like it always has. If you don’t think so, study the schools listed above. I truly believe their digressions were a lot worse than GW, and yet in most cases, the programs have not suffered greatly, and their coaches remain. As far as recruiting, if kids want to come to GW, they’ll come to GW. It’s ironic that those who say our recruiting is crap think that this will hurt our recruiting.. really? Looking forward to the next 25 years.
Free Quebec7/25/2016 10:52:32 AM
Thinker. I agree with your narrative entirely.
Except, where are you getting 7 witnesses? I count 6. 5 former and current players, plus 1 former GW basketball staff member.
hoopfan787/25/2016 11:12:11 AM
Bo, (not saying i hope this is the case) unfortuantely i think that ML will not be getting on that flight to Japan. We shall see, but that is just what i think will happen as the independent investigation proceeds.
GW697/25/2016 11:22:42 AM
A lot of spinning here.Nero might keep him on even after ML
suggested that PN will jerk off to tapes of practice? If Nero does
that it will take spinning to new heights. I know that we live in a
time when facts are no longer facts--just subjective agendas---but
as I get older my tolerence is wearing thin.
GW697/25/2016 11:32:07 AM
Another way to put it. Underneath neurotic suffering is real suffering.
The neurotic suffering is spin the real suffering is what we all know
to be true. We don't know what the truth is yet--it will set him free
or he will need to really suffer before he can move on.
The MV7/25/2016 11:41:34 AM
Yes GW69, if Lonergan were to be guilty of making the remarks at Nero's expense, if he were to show real remorse and apologize to Pat (and for all we know this may have happened already though it admittedly sounds like this is unlikely as Lonergan has denied making these comments), and Nero were to forgive him, then perhaps the two could move forward and work together. It's called forgiving some one for making a series of incredibly stupid mistakes. It's not unprecedented.
184.108.40.2067/25/2016 11:49:25 AM
true, for instance the board has forgiven you for 15 years of them the mv
Danjsport7/25/2016 12:09:59 PM
Bo- as with thinker, I appreciate your opinions on this topic and many others. And, I acknowledge you may be right that this is a kid (or 5) with an agenda. I also understand you're defending a friend here.
With that said, I think you are providing very little credence to the article, and finding ways to bash it that aren't necessarily fair. Start from the top- there's an email with a student that 1) went directly to his AD and 2) talked to the post (unnamed to us). This student was willing to risk enough to do that. In fact, that email is enough for a story with a headline as simple as "student goes to AD with complaints leading to Title IX investigation." But the post went further, finding other staffers and students who, while offering quotes to be viewed by the public as "anonymous" that found problems with Lonergan. Again, good information to add to a story that already contains one piece of hard evidence.
The story could have found players to support Lonergan, sure. But this doesn't make the story wrong. It doesn't change, if true, the facts. The facts are students talked to by the post had issues with Lonergan.
Maybe they are "half truths" and lies as skittles claims. That wold be better for the program. Maybe somebody perceived things in a way differently, with a negative impact. Maybe it's somebody with an axe to grind, though I personally think the risks, even if the post lists them anonymously, are not worth the reward. Unless, of course, we're talking about a player who is still on the team and wants Lonergan out.
Something new is in this story--whether true or not. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a new investigation of issues that were already addressed. The school would have put out a statement supporting their coach and explaining that all of the allegations had already been investigated. Instead, a new investigation is being conducted. Let's wait and see how it plays out without basing the anonymous kids or the coach.
GW 697/25/2016 12:11:24 PM
All I do as a therapist is help people heal their "empathic ruptures"
all day long .I know all about forgiveness. This rupture is a beauty and
to get to the place you suggest is unlikely to occur because the rupture
is so egregious and public. Having said that I always enjoy being
delighted and surprised when things turn out differently than I imagined.
The Dude7/25/2016 12:26:55 PM
Doc, you could make a good living just treating the nuts on this board, present poster included!
Bo Knows7/25/2016 1:38:32 PM
Starting with you The Dude.
GW 697/25/2016 1:44:41 PM
Couples therapy for Dude and Bo Knows!?
The Dude7/25/2016 1:51:29 PM
Sadly Doc, Bo is already taken, in a mythical imaginary relationship with ML. That "relationship" would be news however to ML ......and Tom Crean and Bobby Knight and a slew of Walter Mitty relationships in his own head.
Good luck counseling that guy Doc, and while you are at it, you'll need to do some digging into his past as Blue Seats, GW 1988, GWStag, Willie, Diageo and a host of other names he posts/ed under.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 2:14:31 PM
Well actually Dude I didn't post that above ... but I agree with it if it will make you feel any better.
Truth Seeker7/25/2016 2:29:31 PM
BC7/25/2016 2:33:08 PM
I suggest everyone stop posting and go donate blood instead of trying to squeeze anymore out of this story until more facts are known.
220.127.116.117/25/2016 2:43:50 PM
So whatever it was that he was cleared of last September, Lonergan decided to act even worse from that point on. Idiot.
thinker7/25/2016 2:45:08 PM
SMART move by ML to leak this letter!
Another in the increasinglyly long list of ML pr misteps,
Free Quebec7/25/2016 2:50:58 PM
He was cleared of sexual harrassment before last season. But that doesn't absolve him of charges that he complained about Nero to players in a way that made some feel uncomfortable, that he used joking appeals to homophobia to belittle Nero since he was absolved, or that some players feel he was too mean-spirited in dealing with them.
Those are the questions likely to be probed here, not the sexual harrassment allegations, and those are the questions that may/should force his ouster depending on what the school finds.
Incidentially, the last line of the article accuses ML of sexual harrassment. Would be very interesting to know if they told ML this part and he ignored it, told ML this part and he provided this year-old exoneration to the reporter only to have that not make it into the article, or if the reporter simply added the quote to the end of article and didn't give ML a chance to respond to that specific accusation. If the first, that would be dumb of ML, if the second or third, then that's bad reporting.
bobo7/25/2016 3:04:25 PM
Agree with Thinker that releasing the letter isn't helpful to ML's cause. Bo said he's seen it previoulsly so maybe Bo had a copy of the letter before the WaPo article came out and is now putting it up on gwhoops.com to shut Dude up. In that case, Bo's not doing his friend any favors.
As for Nero "forgiving" ML, it may have nothing to do with some type of theraputic breakthrough as GW69 suggests but simply be a business decision by an AD that calculates it's easier to work with ML than try to go out and find a better coach to agree to come to GW.
18.104.22.1687/25/2016 3:06:36 PM
I cannot believe Lonergan would share that letter and I cannot believe a "friend" would post it here
hoopfan787/25/2016 3:14:39 PM
ML posted letter and email from provest that included the letter to facebook. Anyone connected to ML on facebook was able to see the letter/email.
BOBO, if the investigation reveals that the comments about Nero having a sexual relationship with a player and ML's comments about how Nero planned to use practice tapes it would not be the AD's decision on how to proceed.
The university anti-discrimination policy includes LGBT as part of it. They couldn't just gloss over that part of an independent investigation. You can't just release a "You Can Play" video and update your non-discrimination policy; you actually have to enforce the policy.
Bigfan7/25/2016 3:19:54 PM
We need more of Truth Seekers post. And more of the other side, defending Lonergan. Which should have been in the story.
Hoopfan78, yes, if Lonergan is found guilty by independent investigation, the story is still deeply flawed and morally wrong. It still sucks. It is the equivalent of a print and electronic lynch mob.
Again, would salute the chops of any Post reporter who did a real article with real research, with some real names. In fact, The Rolling Stone story was destroyed by a talented young Washington Post reporter, who got some people to talk on the record.
This article is a narrative, with people not being pushed to be on the record, zero context as we found out from Martini Boy's great contribution, and a totally accusatory tone.
There are a lot of gray areas in life, Washington and the world that don't fit bold, direct accusations. It takes some mettle to include them, making a story less sensational and less appealing on social media, but more truthful. A diligent professional knows that in any field.
We just don't know anything and that is because the story is frankly, a one-sided piece of shit. The allegations may or may not be true, may or may be half-truths, may be selected anecdotes, sour grapes, etc. We have no context and it sure seems deliberate because it would muss up the pretty narrative, all wrapped up in a bow that Lonergan is an abusive, insensitive, homophobic monster.
Haven't heard the Feinstein comments, but he apparently is pissing all over the story. Doesn't that tell you something?
Doesn't Steinberg going out of his way to quote Lonergan supporters tell you something? Why did the author of the article not quote them? Doesn't that tell you something?
And here's a stunning revelation that one imagines they teach at the School of Media and Public Affairs: why not reach out to them in the first place and put it in the article for context? Garino, Creek and Armwood have a different story to tell and for Garino, being coached by Lonergan means to him that he is on an Olympic team and has a shot at the NBA. And is a good person, like all of the players who remain.
But, like the university, putting it out for independent investigation. I speak about this numerous times a day with a longtime journalist who has no problem disagreeing with me, but agrees with me on this issue, one reason why I pursue it here. It is just beyond the pale to print something in this fashion, particularly when someone's career is at stake.
However, I am sending out for an outside opinion to see whether someone who knows little of the issues but has a lot of reporting experience, believes it is appropriate.
Meanwhile, defenders should speak up and provide more of the missing context like the sneaker remark. Makes a difference in weighing what actually went on.
hoopfan787/25/2016 3:37:47 PM
I agree with most of what you say. Based on the reaction from Pato it doesn't sound like a case where he was asked to speak about this and either said no or his quotes weren't used. I don't think you will find anyone who would argue that he shouldn't have included quotes from players who support ML (we know that at least 3 do).
Fienstien's interview was interesting, but he couched it several times as saying he has known ML for 20 years and is a big fan. Said similar to what that sports junkies had said about the AD comments that they don't believe it and would be shocked.
I have trouble believing that a student could make up such comments and have at least one of the 4 others corrobate the story(i don't think he would have printed that part of it was only coming from the 1 source).
I don't think having a relationship of reporter/coach (even if for 20 years) puts you in a position to know a person to that point. We have all found out things about longterm friends/collegues/family members that shocked us. I know many don't want to believe it, but i'm willing to at least say that this part of the story can be and most likely is true. It just comes off as too far fetched to be made up.
obviously that is my opinion and not fact, but i continue to think that ML will not be on the sidelines next year. Hopefully the investigation can be thorough, yet somewhat fast so as not to keep this story going for the rest of the summer.
The Dude7/25/2016 3:40:39 PM
Agree the letter posting is unwise as is the general reaction to date from ML, but really there is no great reaction, bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Guy probably needs better advisors though, like someone seriously expert in crisis management.
The MV7/25/2016 3:45:18 PM
Bigfan, we're on the same side of this issue butr there are a few things that you just posted which should be cleared up. First, I did listen to the Feinstein interview and to suggest that he is pissing all over the story is not at all accurate. He made a point to preface his remarks by saying that he has tremdous respect for those who he works both with and for at the Post. He also said that it would be incredible if the Post did not have afair amount of corroborating evidence before publishing this. That said, he also went on to say that he is not at all a fan of using anonymous sources. My interpretation of "pissing on a story" means that he'd tell anybody who'd listen that the effort was flimsy and/or simply untrue. Not the case here at all.
The Steinberg article isn't necessarily designed to clean up Kilgore's mess. The fact is that Zeke, Creek, Pato all came forward, publicly, to refute the allegations. This is newsworthy and not necessarily some kind of make-up call.
Now, your notion as to why Kilgore seemingly made little if any attempt to show some balance in his article is a fair one (assuming this to be accurate). As someone pointed out, it doesn't change the fact that these allegations have been made. However, it would have helped create a perception that there are many out there who feel that Lonergan could not have done what he's accused of doing, leaving the reader with lots of questions about this as opposed to an apparent conviction in the press.
Rich Maier7/25/2016 3:55:16 PM
Bigfan, you've said a lot for someone who knows nothing. See one can get their point across in less than 1000 words.
The MV7/25/2016 3:55:18 PM
Dude, on the subject of proper reactions to crisis situations, I saw an intervierw yesterday with Gabriel Sherman who has authored a book in about Fox News (you would never know it from this site but Roger Ailes was in the news quite a bit last week) and has been accused of "having it in" for the organization. He made an interesting comment. To paraphrase, he felt that the more pushback he receives from individuals he questions, the more there likely is to unearth about them. In Lonergan's case, he issued his statement and is now allowing the story and investigation to run its course. I'm not at all convinced that outbursts filled with denials would truly help his case at this point in time.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 3:57:27 PM
The letter that was posted here is the one I was referring to before. Bobo, it was already out in the public domain for days being shared among ML's many friends on facebook. Not surprising that it would eventually find it's way here given the very public nature of this story. More surprising that it took this long for someone to post it.
What the letter does show as I reported above is that the Post failed to acknowledge this important fact in its article despite apparently being provided with the letter. In other words, ML had no repercussions and was not monitored by the University following the 2014-15 season. The Post would lead you to believe that the University took the steps of having ML monitored in light of this investigation. Not true!
FQ is right that it doesn't prove whether or not ML subsequently made the statements in question during the 2015-16 season. But it does possibly narrow the scope to only actions or statements that occurred in 2015-16 and does speak to the Post's credibility here.
22.214.171.1247/25/2016 3:58:54 PM
Seems as though Pato and a few others were refuting the "too tough of a coach" talk. I didn't see any of them refute the sexual accusations. It's quite possible he never said anything of that sort to Creek and Armwood, that was a few years ago. Of course Mo Creek said he didn't read the article, so I'm not certain if he even knows what he was refuting.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 4:10:48 PM
I agree with the Dude that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. There is no PR playbook here when you are blindsided. However, I don't think it was disaster for ML to release this letter. It shows possible bias of the Post in writing the article.
And MV the author you cited gives rise to exactly what many fear. That personal bias and animus become part of the motive in following a story. The more you pushback the harder I am going after you? So no one is entitled to a defense and just must accept infallible reporting? I know you are not saying that but that one reason why many distrust the media. There is no entitlement to publish a false story even if you can hide behind the public figure latitude given in defamation cases.
Long Suffering Fan7/25/2016 4:23:42 PM
I have just reread the article in light of the letter of exoneration that has been posted, and what isn't clear is what are new allegations (2015-2016 season) and what is the old stuff. The article does say that at least one of the players says ML was better in terms of the kids but focused his negative comments towards the AD. The wording of the article makes it clear also, at least in my opinion, that player who approaced the Post after this season is one of the recent transfers (Cimino, Jorgensen or Swan).
The Dude7/25/2016 4:29:24 PM
MV, Gabe Sherman one of the best young journalists out there. Big fan of his work, one of the few guys doing real research with some cajones.
Were I to advise ML on the matter Bo, I'd suggest the following:
1) Acknowledge the seriousness of the allegations, combined with 'every person can improve in every facet of life...I'm not perfect...."
2) Issue a vague general denial as to the bulk of these allegations.
3) SSSSH. Tough to do, but in addition to those 2 things, there's not much more I'd suggest he do. Sometimes crisis mode overkill raises "The Lady doth protest too much" sensation, unfair as that can be.
ziik7/25/2016 4:35:28 PM
Good advice for Life 101, Dude
Bigfan7/25/2016 4:44:20 PM
How about we keep snarky comments about each other or their posts out of it.
Am sincerely curious about one thing that the experienced PR people here seem to say: why, from a PR or other standpoint, is it bad to release exculpatory evidence not in the article, like this letter?
This is a sincere question, not like some, trying to knock down another poster, but wondering why defending oneself is a mistake. Does it prolong the story? Taint the investigation?
Would like to see more of his side of the story that we didn't get. MartiniBoy's post was incredibly revelatory it seemed to weighing the alleged incident.
GW Alum Abroad7/25/2016 4:56:04 PM
Nothing to add, just want to make the 500th post to this thread! 😂
ziik7/25/2016 4:58:41 PM
Bigfan, the story about ML is a story about snarky comment.s
One surprise: that the practices were not all recorded to begin with. For analysis by the coaches, for basketball purposes.
The MV7/25/2016 5:05:38 PM
Bigfan, I'm honestly not sure if your "snarky post" comment was directed at me or not, but seeing that I was the one who commented on your previous post, I guess this could have been directed at me. If so, let me assure you that you are off-base here as there was nothing snarky about my post at all, nor was there any attempt to bring you down. I attempted to clarify a few things you wrote, after you admitted to not having heard the Feinstein interview but commented on him anyway. I'm pretty sure we're allowed to disagree with things that are written here without being accused of knocking down another poster.
And, if this was directed at a different poster, as Gilda Radner used to say on SNL as Emily Litella, "never mind."
Bigfan7/25/2016 5:08:23 PM
Never mind option, MV. Not directed at you at all.
The MV7/25/2016 5:17:01 PM
Thanks Bigfan. I hope you can understand if I might get a little paranoid about that sort of thing. :)
Alumnus7/25/2016 5:27:48 PM
I haven't read anything by any former player to "refute" the allegations. They said, in varying degrees, that he's tough but they think he's a good coach. How does that refute the allegations? Maybe they didn't experience abuse. That doesn't mean that someone else didn't. Bullies often have their favorites. The coach obviously developed a different relationship, for example, with Mitola than with Jorgensen. I saw Mitola make probably dozens of stupid plays where he dribbled into traffic with no escape plan, threw up terrible shots, including one back over his shoulder near the end of a close game that could've made the difference in the team reaching the NCAAs. If Jorgensen had made those plays, he would've been riding pine. Mitola maybe came out for a play, if at all. Jorgensen, who started the season as a core player, left GW. Mitola, who came in for one season with little pressure to prove anything, left as a big Lonergan favorite. Nothing wrong with that, just illustrating that different players get treated differently and perceive things differently.
A lot of posts suggest strongly that players that don't want tough coaching shouldn't play for Lonergan, and that our fans don't want them. I don't want to categorically exclude players who will say something if tough coaching turns to abuse. There's plenty of ways to be a tough coach without being abusive or demeaning. Yes, to be a successful athlete, you have to take criticism over and over and over. Sometimes it's going to go over the line. It seems like the players who've complained are saying it's gone way beyond that. I don't know what the facts are in Lonergan's case, and I have no judgment one way or the other at this point about what should happen to him.
RUSerious7/25/2016 5:28:57 PM
So this is the SECOND time Lonergan has been investigated for sexual harrassment???
Naismith Knows7/25/2016 6:51:08 PM
I have heard that he is tough, and with some players he gets personal and goes beyond in his criticisms. I stated here before that he tears guys down but doesn't build back up. As a result they don't feel like he has their backs even though he pubilicy says he does. Some deal with it obviously, but it is not beyond reason that any coach would be harder on some players than others. As for the alleged Nero comments I hope that is untrue. This is all so unfortunate because he is clearly a good X&O guy and the program has really improved.
Bo Knows7/25/2016 9:48:45 PM
Some news ... University has apparently hired a Philadelphia-based law firm well versed in NCAA compliance to undertake an investigation (not sure but it may be Pepper Hamilton who handled the Baylor investigation). Initial thinking is that it will take approximately several weeks to complete but that could vary as the investigation moves forward. Hopefully in 2-3 weeks, we can be done with this, ML can move forward as GW HC, ML and PN will patch up any differences, and we will get back to discussing basketball.
Much more fun arguing with the Dude about basketball then this. This is a no-win situation for anyone involved.
The Dude7/25/2016 10:23:35 PM
No win is right, I was thinking what could possibly be a good outcome, and I can't see one. The best case scenario is probably what Bo laid out, but I find that very unlikely, sadly, because, seriously, I think ML is a good Coach and has done a good job. Its because I think he's so good, I have much higher standards than the largely terrible recent Freshman recruiting (you might have read that before) and the sideways path the program has taken the past 2 years after what looked like huge ascendany in 2013-14. Still hoping the program ascends as it appeared to be that season.
bobo7/25/2016 10:25:23 PM
HoopFan78, the investigaiton probably won't be able to reveal weather ML said those things about Nero, especially if ML continues to deny them. They can conclude that they believe the allogations are more likely than not accurate but there will always be some doubt.
But even if they conclude they are more likely true, does that mean GWU HAS to fire the coach? I haven't read GWU's anti-discrimination policy so I don't know if an employee is believed to have spoken a homophobic slur, even as a failed attempt at humor, automatically HAS to be terminated. Usssualy these policies require a university or company to ensure a safe workplace. Is there evidence of discrimination in hiring or promotion? Has ML created an unsafe workplace? If Nero tells investigators and university officials that he does NOT believe there is an unsafe or hostile workplace, I would think that has substantial influence.
Moreover, these policies ussually do NOT require automatic termination. Even if the university finds that ML violated an anti-discrimation clause, there are ussually remidies short of termination for them to proactively act so that discrimination doesn't happen in the future and that Nero and others do not have to work in an hostile environment.
Hoopfan787/25/2016 10:48:49 PM
Bobo, i don't disagree with a lot of what you say. However it is not only a hostile work environment issue. You are also talking about a coach potentially creating a hostile environment to the students (note: even if every player is straight, that doesn't mean they aren't offended or take it as hostile). I'm sure the student that he said was having an "inappropriate relationship with the AD" probably felt a little hostility. Also, as with every coach the university has to worry about donors. If the outcome is that the current player(s) confirm that those statements were made it will be difficult for the administration to put him on an improvement plan, and explain to individuals who write large checks that things are ok.
Bigfan7/26/2016 3:58:09 AM
Isn' t the shoe on the other foot now?
This has more plot twists than General Hospital or some modern day soap opera.
Maine Colonial7/26/2016 4:32:13 AM
What a donnybrook between the Lonergan and the Nero clans. We've turned into the Fighting Irish Colonials. Maybe Mike Brey could help negotiate a truce.
John11/1/2016 2:26:24 PM
This original chain was thoughtful, rationale and contained dozens of the actual posters of the board weighing in intelligently & with a range of opinion and thought.
Enter all those lies about Nero and bullshit thread, which were meant to tarnish him falsely as a Gay predator, to distract folks from the ML story and make Nero into the bad guy. Bo Knows created those lies here, and then breathed life into them hundreds of times for weeks and weeks. It served its sad purpose, to create confusion and change the story, but it was vile and despicable and Bo Knows, you are solely the cause, outrageously disgusting and vile.
The MV11/1/2016 3:00:26 PM
Hi John. Let's find out a little bit about you. You are obviously worked up about what you feel Bo has allegedly done, so much so that you felt the need to resurrect the two longest and least pleasurable threads in this board's history. Many people contributed to both threads, largely over the summer while this news was happening. And yet, I can't help but notice that you John did not participate in either of these threads until today. Am curious about your GW background. Were you following the 1-27 team? The sweet 16 team? The 26-1 team? How about this past season's NIT Championship team? Were you following these two threads over the summer in realtime but were simply choosing not to participate in these threads? if so, that shows some amazing self-restraint on your part given how worked up you appear to be today.
Or, are you someone who has been posting here regularly only under a different name than John? If that's the case, why would you change your poster name? I really hope that's not the case John because I think that people who do this are absolute worthless pieces of shit. What that means John is that even if you have a valid point, it is rendered invalid in my mind and in all likelihood, the minds of many. Because if you John, and all of the other "new" posters who have been nice enough to visit this site, are really regulars who have invented new names in order to demonstrate that their points of view are so valid because look at how many other posters are agreeing with you, then what you should really know John is that you are not fooling anyone. People who do this are frauds, have zero ceredibility, actually I already covered this...I can't improve upon worthless pieces of shit so let's stick with that.
So welcome to the board John, always nice to have new fans here. Let's hope this is really the case as I'd hate to have to think of you as a, you know, worthless piece of shit.
John's Mom11/1/2016 3:08:10 PM
I apologize on behalf of John. He is obviously mentally ill and as much as try, we cannot control his access to the internet. I am sorry he has come here to ruin your conversations. He often posts under different names. Please ignore him.
The MV11/1/2016 3:10:36 PM
You've raised a worthless piece of shit.
126.96.36.19911/1/2016 3:17:53 PM
John, good posts, important, glad to see some here get it.
Now time to move on, and time for you The MV to take a chill pill
John11/1/2016 3:30:17 PM
The MV, just a fan. Don't have the time like you to spend all day writing diatribes about minutia. Just a fan disgusted by the Nero slandering.
188.8.131.5211/1/2016 3:34:05 PM
I found John's posts coherent and worthwhile. I too was offended by that crap. As for the MV, "long and unpleasurable to read" is a nice pithy summary of each of your posts on this website.
Bo Knows11/1/2016 3:39:51 PM
Funny John, I haven't posted a word about PN in a long time and have no problems with him. I came here and said I was wrong about the outcome. It is you who wants to dredge this up and continually lie about it. You are not doing PN any favors by repeatedly bringing up this issue which as MV says has not been discussed in awhile.
John11/1/2016 3:42:55 PM
Bullshit, you posted and spread mailcious lies about Nero. Its all here. I'm out, go back to 1,000 word posts with The MV about absolutely nothing.
Bo Knows11/1/2016 3:46:47 PM
You keep repeating the same tripe John. Not any evidence just conclusory statements. I am not Skittles, I am not jj and I am not Bea. They can support or defend themselves. Ask Herve to confirm if you would like.
184.108.40.20611/1/2016 3:53:50 PM
Will it ever end? Bo slandered Nero, The MV is having his usual temper tantrums, John didn't like it, Bo posted 23 more times, lets move on.
LuvDaGame11/1/2016 4:25:25 PM
Let me start with an apology because I honestly do not mean to offend anyone. It has been a looooooong day for me. The first paragraph of MV's post at 3:00 p.m. today was hilarious and put a smile on my face (well maybe a devilish grin).but I chuckled nevertheless. The first three sentences of that paragraph were priceless.
Bigfan11/1/2016 4:50:46 PM
This post resurrection sponsored by the scroll down button.
220.127.116.1111/1/2016 5:44:58 PM
A fifth rate PI could figure out that John and Poster seem to mysteriously appear together in each thread. Then followed by the Dude who feigns ignorance. They must think we were all born yesterday. Bo ignore this crap. No need to get in the swamp with those with a home field advantage.
bobo11/1/2016 5:48:18 PM
Again, what is the "lie" that with which Bo supposively slandered Nero? I rember that Nero was accused of having multiple private meetings with players on the basketball team and at least one private dinner with a player on the basketball team.
Has that been proven to a lie? If so, how was that proven to be false?
Poster 11/1/2016 6:10:10 PM
I recall them well nor do I care or want to relitigate. I do however also recall being told by the same person for two months that the Wash Post story was an invented hit piece and ML would be cleared. Any suggstion to the contrary was shouted down by the same person. Another untruth, the lesson is to just ignore anyone with such an overt agenda. If you write 177 posts on one thread, well you have both an insane agenda and a mental infermity, best to ignore entirely. Was there ever an honest word from that person? No, so just ignore.
Bo Knows11/1/2016 9:23:50 PM
Bobo, to be clear I neither authored the charge against Nero or slandered him.
Poster, that's right. I did say the charges were unwarranted. I also said ML would survive. I was wrong. I came here and apologized. Perhaps it's something you should learn to do especially when you wrongly accuse someone of saying something they didn't say. I am responsible for my posts period. If you have a beef with others I suggest you take it up with them.
Danjsport11/1/2016 10:04:01 PM
Stop. Please stop