Talent vs Results
tim4
 3/1/2017 9:01:38 PM      Replies: 71

tim42/26/2017 6:00:57 PM

So after today's game we are in a 3way tie for 6th in the conference. 

Theres a a lot of discussion here about "underperformance"

When I look at the talent on the teams in this conference I think it is very hard to argue we have top-5 roster. Would love to hear someone make that case. 

But if we all agree on that, barring a 2-loss close to the season we'll end up about right where we should be. Makes the case against keeping MoJo a lot less compelling

 

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tuna can2/26/2017 6:28:47 PM

OK, I'll bite. This is was the worst defensive performance vis-a-vis (I want bonus points) defensive man on ball defense that I have seen in GW recorded history. And, yet..... we won. Paritally because we controlled our offense just enough and produced open looks that dropped. 

We usually have to hit 50 percent to win a game like this from (3). Not today, because we got shots on more possessions. 

The other plus is that coaches and players alike believe that we can ride a lead into a win based on our Free Throw shooting. That breeds a calmness that allows the team to run a lead into a victorry.

That last point is not to be overlooked.

tuna can2/26/2017 6:33:43 PM

Tim, per your post question, I think that what I want to see as a fan of GW basketball is a team that "DELIVERS" results that we expect. If you take out the unfortunate VCU result that is totally understandable based on "youth" and effort, we are doing fairly well recently.

If I had a concern it is the reliance on Steeves to play D.

I almost wish that we could sub on the fly as in hockey. Plus, Steeves got defended on O by GMU and that is REALLY BAD, since we don't really need him on D. LIKE we don't want him on D.

the dude2/26/2017 8:24:37 PM

Agree with Tim

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the dude2/27/2017 7:44:22 PM

8-8 in A10, 9-7 if not for the stolen VCU win

I'd say given that the prior 2 GW teams with much better rosters went 10-8 and 11-7, not bad given the deck dealt.  I do think the A10 is down which has helped.

bobo2/27/2017 8:35:03 PM

Tim,

If you want to be a top 3 team in the league then GW would need to get better talent per your arguement. 

MoJo has never shown an ability to be a top recruiter.

Makes the arguement for NOT keeping MoJo a lot more compelling.

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gw692/27/2017 9:01:19 PM

Youre blaming the 3rd assistant for poor recruiting!Even if that was his primary responsibility that would be absurd.--It's crap like that on the board 

that shuts down serious dialogue about the future of the program.

One would have to believe ML was the chief recruiter ---no?

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bobo2/27/2017 10:29:21 PM

Who has MoJo recruited? If you don't have an answer why would you make him the permenent head coach.  GW needs to hire a PROVEN recruiter.  Not someone you hope someday becomes a good recruiter. 

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hugh2/27/2017 10:35:08 PM

He's signed two recruits with the interim tag on him. That's a good start. 

the mv2/27/2017 10:36:32 PM

As I said on a different thread, forecasts for this team prior to the coaching change had GW finishing anywhere between 3rd and 5th place in the conference.  GW was picked for 8th by the conference coaches after the coaching change was made.  The talent did not change at all between July and October.  So there is your case for top 5 talent.  NBC, CBS, SB Nation among others all thought so.

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the dude2/27/2017 10:55:02 PM

Hugh, excellent point.  I'd add the strong likelihood that Canadian Mojo played a large role in landing Canadian Steeves. 

Although Tim's thread was about has the team played about where the roster suggests it should have, answer to that question is yes. 

 

 

the other mg2/28/2017 12:38:13 AM

I was hoping that our freshman talent, namely Smith, Toro, and Marfo, would have developed more, after a promising early season.  Bolden has made strides, after a slow start.  I hope lack of playing time, along with other insecurities about the future of the program, doesn't cause any of these four guys to rethink their commitment to our program.  I still wonder if we could attract a prominent or promising new coach and still keep Mojo as #1 assistant.

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bigfan2/28/2017 1:47:21 AM

Prior to September, that would have been a huge promotion.

That would be an ideal solution, allowing Mojo to either learn from an accomplished veteran coach or stay for a bit and do his learning elsewhere and come back. He has plenty of time.

If we win the A-10, the job should be his. Otherwise, we should look at our options and there seems to be some good ones out there. Offer Mojo a large raise and that once-big promotion to associate head coach.

But the fix is in to keep him, it sure seems.

 

maine colonial2/28/2017 6:07:35 AM

Archie Miller inherited an NIT team and went 20-13 and 17-14 his first two years at Dayton. 

Will Wade had two seasons at Chattanooga before taking over a 26-10 NCAA team at VCU and going 25-11 his first year. 

Chris Mooney was 18-12 at Air Force before getting hired by Richmond and going 13-17 and 8-22 his first two seasons.

Dan Hurley had two seasons at Wagner going 13-17 and 25-6 before getting hired by URI and going 8-21 and 14-18 his first two seasons.

Mark Schmidt had six seasons at Robert Morris before going 8-22 and 15-15 his first two seasons at St. Bonaventure.

Dave Paulsen had seven seasons coaching at Bucknell before taking over at George Mason and going 11-21 his first season.

I could go on-and-on but it's pretty clear MoJo is doing a fine job in his first season as a head coach. 

And what's killing your case for hiring someone else is the damn kids keep winning!

 

 

 

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maine colonial2/28/2017 7:10:58 AM

The two most successful coaches in GW Men's Basketball History since 1966 are African American: Mike Jarvis and Karl Hobbs.

The two most successful coaches in the 109-year history of Georgetown Men's Basketball are African-American: John Thompson II and John Thompson III.

Is there are a pattern or is it purely coincidence?

I believe it's a pattern that favors MoJo.

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chester would2/28/2017 8:36:17 AM

I would say MV's argument does hold water in that the given the consensus of the pre-firing predictions, GW either had a top-5 roster or became the equivalent of one with Lonergan's experience/game coaching. So you're left with either deciding that Lonergan's coaching mattered enough to knock 3 spots off the standings, or that the coaches thought everyone was wrong about the recruiting/transfer class. I'm pretty sure in June, we thought the guys graduating would hurt some, but also thought there could be another NIT bid for this team. There's a lot of revisionist history going on. We have naturally lowered our expectations with a guy learning on the job, but besides Marfo, who are you really disappointed in? Sina? Maybe with a guy like Lonergan barking out stuff from the sidelines, not having an actual point guard wouldn't have mattered as much...

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maine colonial2/28/2017 8:42:57 AM

At GW, Mike and Karl have a combined winning percentage at GW of .592 versus .530 for all the other coaches. MoJo currently is at .552 (16-13) and the last coach was at .581. Mike and Karl had 7 NCAA teams in 18 years compared to 4 for all the other coaches combined.

At Georgetown, the Thompsons have a combined winning percentage of .693 versus .555 for all the other coaches. The Thompsons have 28 NCAA appearances in 40 years compared to 2 for all the other coaches.

So the African-American coaches at GW and Georgetown have combined for 35 NCAA appearances compared to 6 for all the other coaches.

Food for thought...

 

tuna can2/28/2017 8:57:56 AM

I said that this team would be an NIT quality team if we had been able to keep Paulie around. We lack a guy who can consistantly take a guy off the dribble and get into the rim or short shot position. I see the "low expectations" on the recruits. Mazzulla is not, IMHO, in that category as he is a lot like PJ. You can't just run at him. He plays at about 6'4 and knows how to score when a defender takes a run off him, or even more, scoring on a clear out. OF course, this is at a high school level, but many of the guys we have at guard were not where he is coming out of high school.

Our freshmen are basically close to an empty vessel of D1 low post moves. That will change. That will come with coaching and work. All three look like they could evolve into starters, but their best bet for success is to hang together since each possesses a different style, making for a good group. Smith has shown that he is the closest on having a few working moves at this level, but I can see the other two have wonderful careers at GW.

I see Steeves' style of play as a good mentoring situation for them. They see that you have to be very physical from the shoulders down to get your shot, but your hands have to be soft and let the ball have a chance to drop through the rim. 

I see more fan frustration here than anything else. Right now, we are just splitting hairs. The sky is not falling at GW.

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the mv2/28/2017 9:11:19 AM

Maine, you continue to make apples to oranges comparisons.  Do you not even see this or do you just not agree with it?

Without doing the research, I would venture to say that every other coach you are mentioning took over a program that needed a serious rebuild.  Most of these coaches were taking over teams that were below average programs (Will Wade being the notable exception).  MoJo was taking over a team that admittedly lost several key players from an NIT Championship team.  But that team also had arguably its best player returning, a solid two-way player coming back, two guards who were anticipated to increase their playing time, not out of necessity but because it would be warranted, a touted freshman class coming in, and two veteran transfers expected to provide the team with poise and experience.  Perhaps even more importantly, these were players brought in to play the same system that they would have played under ML.  Ask Lonergan or Hobbs what it's like to coach that first year with someone else's players who have difficulty adapting to how you would like to coach.  MoJo has a tremendous advantage in not having that problem.

Doing nothing more than comparing won-loss records proves very little because the circumstances are so different.  Nobody is even suggesting that MoJo has done a bad job.  But if your campaign is to prove that MoJo has done just as good a job as ML would have done, I will very respectfully but strongly disagree with you.

 

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maine colonial2/28/2017 9:42:14 AM

MoJo is going to be judged on a lot more than just wins and losses. He's also going to be judged on whether the kids want to come back next year and play for him. That's an area where MoJo hopefully will have a clear advantage over the last coach. Mike lost talent throughout his tenure including Pellom, Kromah, Kethan and Paulie. He also made some other kids miserable too and that was ultimately his undoing. MoJo said his first job was to show the kids he really cared about them. Hopefully he has accomplished that and they will all be back next year. Time will tell.

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bobo2/28/2017 9:58:15 AM

Taking W/L records with out contex like Maine does for all of his examples, MoJo took over a 28-10 team and turned it into a 16-13 team. 

Mostly those were struggling programs that needed a new coach because the previous one was losing too much and needed to rebuild.   Not the case for GW this year.

 

 

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jammer2/28/2017 10:02:47 AM

Context?  How about you Bobo.  Mojo did not inherit the squad that won 28 games he inherited a squad of almost entirely new players. A team which turned two rotation players. Please. 

mentzinger2/28/2017 10:16:36 AM

I think that was his point Jammer

tim42/28/2017 12:24:42 PM

@MV i just don't think SB Nation's conference preview is evidence of much. 

We've all watched a full year of A10 games. 

Do you think GW has top 5 talent in the conference? 

I think we have 6-8 most talented roster. 

And we're gonna finish 6-8. 

Plenty of other reasons to consider keeping or firing MoJo but my point was to object to this pervasive idea on the board that we "underperformed" this year 

the dude2/28/2017 12:52:24 PM

Word perfect post Tim.

Reminder, we were 6th and 5th in the A10 the last 2 seasons. Then lost 5/7 of the rotational players heading into this season. 6th would be quite an accomplishment given that.

bobo2/28/2017 12:53:37 PM

GW has as much talent as anyone in this league save Dayton, VCU and URI.  

Davidson has 2 good players and thats it.  I like Adam's and Mobley for SBU but GW has much better depth and size.  Fordham or GMU? You kidding me?  GW much more talented and playing a heavy veteran lineup.

 

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the mv2/28/2017 12:54:48 PM

Tim4, talent and underperformance are two very tricky subjects.  Talent is very hard to objectively measure when you watch one team play 30 games and all other teams say no more than 10 (and for most of us, far less).  Biases will naturally be built in and depending on who is doing the evaluating, this can go in either direction.  I would start by saying that I don't think we are as talented as Dayton, VCU or URI. After that, I would not say that any other conference team is easily more talented than GW.  Richmond, the team that was swept by George Mason?  St. Bonaventure, the team that lost two of their "big three" from a season ago?  La Salle, who likely has our starting 5 beat but whose bench leaves much to be desired?  This topic gets much murkier after Dayton/VCU/URI.  GW's major problem is a lack of foot speed and I've said this now for several seasons.  We can't fast break well on offense and can't defend penetration from quicker guards on defense.  Does that make this team untalented?  Rhody can't make free throws.  Richmond has trouble rebounding and believe it or not, shooting the 3.  Are those two teams untalented?

Underperformance is also an unclear term.  If you think a team will go 20-10 and they finish 8-22, it's clear that they have underperformed.  But what if they go 17-13?  Technically, they have still underperformed but we all would take 17-13 over 8-22.

My expectations for MoJo were not the same as they would have been for ML.  Therefore, I don't believe that MoJo underperformed even though I feel the team has in comparison to what might have been without a coaching change.  I don't think MoJo should be extended but the reasons for this have little if anything to do with the team's record.  First, I think it's time to clean house.  Lonergan's fingerprints do remain on this program and I'd like to see a fresh start with new offenses and defenses installed.  I'd guess that Hajj and Carm would not return (could be wrong about that) and that a more experienced coaching staff would be very beneficial.  At the very least, as Bobo has repeatedly said, the school should conduct a thorough search as this would be the responsible thing to do.  See who's out there and who you could land. 

 

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ziik2/28/2017 1:19:31 PM

If the talents of the several part time point guards could be combined in one guy, this team would be a real winner.

Mojo, like ML, has done a nice job of working with a bunch of flawed starters. 

It is, I am sure, a minority opinion, but, I doubt ML could have done a whole lot better with this team.

Maybe Ty would have been more comfortable with him, Yuta too. But, the team as a whole would be similar to what we see now.

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the dude2/28/2017 1:29:38 PM

Ziik, agreed.  Thought ML did a good job managing the various flaws and so has Mojo and staff this season, with a much more flawed team this year, final result would look very similar.  

That is actually quite a compliment to ML that the young staff he hired, managed and mentored has been this competent.

 

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tim42/28/2017 1:35:13 PM

@MV

I think its tough to make the case that we are more talented than Richmond, SBU, or LaSalle. At the guard position all 3 have us beat easily and by such a wide margin that I don't think LaSalle or SBU's relative lack of depth makes up for it. 

Frankly I don't know how much more talented we are than UMass who is one team that it would be fair to say is clearly "underperforming" the talent on their roster. 

 

 

 

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the mv2/28/2017 2:02:18 PM

Tim4, ...and I'm pretty sure we have each of their frontcourts beat.  This is a very subjective discussion and if your opinion is that we have less talent than Richmond, SBU and La Salle, you are entitled to it.  My opinion is that no matter your opinion on GW vs those three programs, the talent gap is close enough that I don't see how anyone could make the claim that any of them have demonstrably better talent than GW (or that GW is demonstrably better than them).

Dude, really glad to hear that this year's flawed team will have a similar final result to last year's team.  Last year's team won the NIT so based on your logic, I'd say that this year's team must have a major run in them.  

ziik the bomb thrower2/28/2017 2:05:08 PM

Reading comprehension. It needs to be emphasized in today's schools.

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the mv2/28/2017 2:22:08 PM

That was a little device I like to call sarcasm, Ziik.

ziik the bomb thrower2/28/2017 2:26:17 PM

Mine, too, MV

the dude2/28/2017 2:33:29 PM

Thanks Ziik, agreed.  Charitable take too, as the repeated mischaracterizations seems intentional. My post was quite clear in its intended meaning.

Tim good thread topic, I think you've made a strong case.

dmvpiranha2/28/2017 2:39:04 PM

We will find out how our talent matches up with other teams next season when Tyler graduates. Who will step up to replace his 17 points per game average? I'm not sure we have another player that scores as consistently as he does right now. I honestly don't see Jaren raising his average too much from where it is at about 10 per game. Patrick could replace some if he stays healthy throughout the season. Yuta will likely continue to get better but he tends to have his ups and downs on the offensive side of the ball. It's not a stretch to think Jordan scores in double figures if he stays with the team, however the team's performance will be based on how the freshmen develop. Assuming Mojo becomes the official head coach next season, his first assessment will be based on the progressions of Jair, Collin, Arnaldo, Kevin, and Justin if he can make the rotation. Jair is starting to show flashes of being a real contributor next year. Collin and Arnaldo need to learn to stay on the court without fouling which could be a real issue for us down low with Tyler gone. It's hard to expect too much from Mazzulla and Jack right out of the gate. We still have an open spot for next year, so maybe we can land an impact transfer.

ziik the bomb thrower2/28/2017 2:47:19 PM

It's a long time trend here, Dude, as we all know.

Some guys think sarcasm requires more emphasis, rather than less.

I think most of us figure it out by 5th grade, but, clearly not all. 

As for the coaching, I may change my take with the next loss. But, damn. Sina is not the guy I thought I saw at SH, and, if he were, we'd have a reason for saying the team is not up to snuff. Same results, if Bolden was a prodigy, like some of his HS team mates. 

Well, I am just enjoying the moments: from Hart, Jordan, Collins, Steeves, and, of course Yuta, Ty and the rest. 

A season long highlights reel would be real deceptive. There have been some sweet moments. 

(FYI: No sarcasm here.)

 

 

 

ziik the bomb thrower2/28/2017 2:52:07 PM

PS-

 

Tim--Nice work

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the dude2/28/2017 3:05:28 PM

Nicely said Ziik.  The most recent stretch from GW has been quite enjoyable.  Lets hope it continues

maine colonial2/28/2017 3:36:17 PM

All four of the African-North American men who have been the head coach of either GW or  Georgetown have taken teams to the NCAA tournament. 

Only 5 of the 19 white coaches have taken GW or Georgetown to the NCAA tournament, which includes the last three: ML; Penders; and Esherick. 

The last 4 permanent head coaches for GW and the last 3 for Georgetown have all taken teams to the NCAA tournament. But only the four African-Americans have taken multiple teams.

More food for thought...

the mv2/28/2017 3:38:00 PM

OK Dude, I'll play this one out.  That characterization was in fact sarcastic.

So if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the regular season of this year's team will not be radically different than last year's team based on record.  If this is really your point, all I can say is why would you pretend like the NIT run never happened?  Don't you think that a season should be based on its entirety, and not just the portion that helps satisfy your argument?

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the dude2/28/2017 4:02:11 PM

Nope, that is not what I am saying, please re-read my post it was rather clear. (or move on, thx)

the mv2/28/2017 4:28:09 PM

I have reread it.  In fact, here is what you wrote:

Thought ML did a good job managing the various flaws and so has Mojo and staff this season, with a much more flawed team this year, final result would look very similar.

Sorry to say that it's not as clear as you seem to think it is.  So why not just explain what you meant by the important point that you put in bold type.

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bo knows2/28/2017 5:10:48 PM

I am not sure what your point is Maine Colonial but I am willing to bet that 99% of the fanbase is all for hiring the best coach regardless of skin color. 

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jammer2/28/2017 5:30:57 PM

Looks like he was just noting the success of African American coaches. Our current Coach has performed quite well under the circumstances per Tim4 post 

bobo2/28/2017 6:05:23 PM

I don't think GW should be making hiring decisions for the coaching staff based on race either. 

What's the winning percentage of black head coaches in the NBA or MLB and how does that compare to the winning % of white coaches?  How about Hispanic coaches? If Hispanic coaches have a lower winning % than white coaches historically, do you stop hiring Hispanic head coaches?

Sounds fairly racist and not a good precident to set for the university. 

 

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maine colonial2/28/2017 7:43:48 PM

MoJo is clearly the leading candidate to be hired as the permanent head coach. I don't think he was hired as the interim just to babysit the team this season. He was hired because the administration was convinced he had the potential to be a good head coach and they gave him the chance to prove it, which he is doing so far. And I am not suggesting that GW is hiring him because of his race but the fact that he is African-Canadian may give him an advantage given the history I outlined above. Every black head men's basketball coach at GW and Georgetown has taken teams to at least three NCAA tournaments even if the coach had never coached before like John Thompson II and Karl Hobbs. That's a fact. MoJo displays a number of other characteristics that may indicate he has the type of personality that may make him even more successful than Karl, JTIII and ML. But dinner is waiting...

 

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the dude2/28/2017 8:19:39 PM

I've always liked that the job was given to someone by choice and not just mindlessly to the next guy (most senior) in line.  That does indeed suggest to me that there was some belief in Mojo.  

No idea if the intent was or now is to remove the interim tag, but even for just one season he was picked ahead of 2 (seemingly very capable) men ahead of him on the totem pole. 

Also think Mojo with International roots, particularly a country which has become a major pipeline of NCAA talent is a big plus.  I'd still lean in the direction of hiring a proven recruiter, but there are some things to like about Mojo, including the performance of the team this season given the # of new players (NINE) and lack of returning rotational players (TWO)

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bobo2/28/2017 9:40:37 PM

There was never amy explanation of why MoJo was hired over the more experienced other more experienced assistant coaches.  Just some boilerplate jargon of MoJo being a "teacher". Literally info that could describe  any coach in the NCAA. I had not heard anyone in the program ever describe MoJo as the next big thing a single time before they chose to make him interim head coach. Not once.

The theory was that Hajj was too close to ML and coach Carm lobbied too hard for the job. Fine, but that does not mean that MoJo is the right man for the permanent head coaching job...he was simply the last man standing. 

GW needs to act like a professional organization and actually conduct a professional search for the next head coach.   Include MoJo in the list of candidates but to simply hand him the job after 1 mediocre season and NO record of being able to recruit high level talent is short sighted and self defeating. 

 

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x and o2/28/2017 9:43:15 PM

Mojo got the job ONLY because Hajj and Carmen conducted themselves in ways which displeased the Administration either before or following the decision. The facts are often not pleasant to a narrative but they remain facts just the same. Mojo has made the most of his good fortune. Credit to him. 

ziik the bureaucrat2/28/2017 10:07:14 PM

I once had a job where I supervised another lawyer. He was a decent, bright, capable guy, and a "minority" to boot-that was a good thing, we thought. I left, thinking my pal would get my job if he wanted it.

The big boss had my subordinate do my job and his, for 6 months, then hired a replacement for me, and asked my pal, the former "subordinate," to train his new supervisor, so he would be able to supervise him. My pal then would be put back in his old slot. 

As he walked out the door, he was told not to be so irrational and quick tempered.

The same boss, a few years before, had conducted a national search for another legal job in the firm, after turning down several employees who had asked to interview for the slot.

The new hiree was from San Francisco, said to be a Harvard/Cal/ Stanford grad, and, a member of the California and DC Bars. He had been a top notch clerk, too.

He showed up, I met him. He was nice enough, but, not really forthcoming in conversation.

He worked in his office for nearly two weeks, produced very little work product.

His second Friday, he went to the courtyard of our office building, took off all of his clothes, sat on a bench, and ate his lunch. It was maybe 20 degrees. 

My pal was nice enough to grab an overcoat, and bring it out to the new guy, who turned out to be a really well educated taxi driver.

GWU, I trust, has long standing guidelines for new hires, and will follow them and comply with all legal requirements.

But, it still is capable of making a wrong decision. Every large institution is.

 

 

bigfan2/28/2017 10:09:04 PM

Is hypocrisy and racism the order of the day?

It took three, count 'em three, posts by a poster, Maine Colonial, saying we should only hire an African-American (later amended to Afro-Canadian after coming to the late conclusion that the earlier posts were factually wrong) coach based on the "success" at GW and another school.

No one stepped in on either count, both the terrible racism and the (not even accurate)  citing of the citadel of all evil down the street as a reason why we should do something.

 Seriously?

Do people here see color when they think of GW basketball? Do you guys see color when you think of Mojo? Or Hobbs? Or any of our players?

Because that is sick. All you should see is Buff and Blue.

Do you see Tyler as Caucasian, Yuta as Asian, Arnoldo as Hispanic and our African-American players as African-American? You should only see them as GW players. They are us and we are them.

Same on Mojo. We all love Mojo. Almost all of us have no idea why he was hired and some of us think he doesn't have enough experience for the job. But we all support and are proud of Mojo because he represents us well. Who the hell is sick enough to think his race has anything to do with whether he should be hired.

On coaches, should we cite Coach K and Mojo's coaching hero, Izzo as evidence white coaches are better? How sick and disgusting.

Reverse a word in there and see how it sounds.

Doesn't make it right. There would be howls to take it down. And those calls would be absolutely right.

Equally disturbing is citing the Th*mpsons. By the way, yeah, Jr. with all the advantages of the famous name of Dad and the school is really tearing up the court. With Daddy sitting right behind all the time.

 A clan of cowards who won't play us. Is it racist to hate them for it? (if as you should as a birthright, you hate Esherick and anything to do with their evil Georget*$n team).

Seriously?

And you all let this stand?

Shame on both points expressed in that horrific post.

 

 

 

 

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bigfan2/28/2017 10:13:28 PM

Assuming it was Maine Colonial posting, not a troll.

Be relieved if it was a troll. Any troll.

ziiks third cousin twice removed2/28/2017 10:18:28 PM

I think we all need to read for comprehension, BF. 

Maine has disclaimed, explicitly, using a single factor for the hire. 

And, MC comes fully vetted. Extremely fully vetted.

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maine colonial2/28/2017 10:29:08 PM

It's the last day of Black History Month both here and in Canada. What I cited were historical facts so why are you so hysterical, BF?

I didn't say we should only hire someone African-American. But if we end up hiring MoJo as the permanent head coach, it might be a good thing because there seems to be a pattern of success that you seem to be averse to recognizing. Please point out what was inaccurate.

 

 

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bigfan2/28/2017 10:41:50 PM

Oh don't know, maybe a racist post that is unintentionally insulting to Mojo and directly insulting to society at large.

Comprehension is just fine.

 Sorry, repeating something and saying oh not the factor or didn't mean it, doesn't cut it.

For example:

maine colonial2/28/2017 3:36:17 PM

All four of the African-North American men who have been the head coach of either GW or  Georgetown have taken teams to the NCAA tournament. 

Only 5 of the 19 white coaches have taken GW or Georgetown to the NCAA tournament, which includes the last three: ML; Penders; and Esherick. 

The two most successful coaches in GW Men's Basketball History since 1966 are African American: Mike Jarvis and Karl Hobbs.

The two most successful coaches in the 109-year history of Georgetown Men's Basketball are African-American: John Thompson II and John Thompson III.

Is there are a pattern or is it purely coincidence?

I believe it's a pattern that favors MoJo.

Post : The last 4 permanent head coaches for GW and the last 3 for Georgetown have all taken teams to the NCAA tournament. But only the four African-Americans have taken multiple teams.

Think Maine Colonial is probably an upstanding person, and is an excellent chronicler of GW history.

That doesn't make it any less disturbing.

This post is so wrong, it's hard to even write this. And compounding it by the school cited as an example.

But the whole idea is just so wrong on so many levels. Saying someone would be better because of their color is demeaning and divisive.

 

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ziik the peasant2/28/2017 10:45:18 PM

Yes, especially because it never has been done before.

Seriously, why are you taking those posts seriously? 

1

bobo2/28/2017 11:09:47 PM

The problem with Maine's arguement is that it by making hiring decisions based on past success or failure of previous employee's skin color can be a double edged sword.  If a previous black head coach was a failure, should a school be reluctant to hire another black head coach in the future? Just becuase Oliver Punell wasn't good at DePaul doesn't mean DePaul shouldn't hire black head coaches in going forward? Same for Shaka Smart or Charlie Storng at UT.  

It's a real dangerous game to take success or failure of the skin color of coaches and use that as a basis of who a university should hire in the future.

3

the dude2/28/2017 11:32:32 PM

MC's post was not racist, just as when you BF were very wrongly accused (I said so at the time too) of a post that wrongfully made the same claim about your past post.

Very wrong use of the word racist, a word that should not be tossed around so casually at posters here.   I personally wouldn't make the argument, and Bobo points out a reason the argument can go off the tracks, but it surely doesn't merit the apocalyptic outrage response.  There is a reason no one stepped in, none was needed.

Bobo, agree GW should do a thorough search and consider all good candidates. I'd point out that you continually describe Mojo as having no record, in fact he has an unknown record to us, but a KNOWN record to Nero/others.  He likely played a big role in landing Steeves. He likely played a role in other players, which ones would be interesting to know.   Large degree of unknown for us the fans, not to those running the program.  If you are Nero, this is the flagship of the athletic program and the only one most people deeply care about, you are going to hitch your wagon to somone you believe will succeed yes?  I have confidence in Nero making a sound decision having observed the success of every coach he has hired at GW.

bobob3/1/2017 12:17:55 AM

Dude, I'm not sure about Steeves.  If he was coming to GW from HS, sure. But he came here from 4 years at Harvard and was recruited to transfer thoughout the country after his senior year in Boston.  

Nero and the AD staff have been continuously promoting MoJo using their press and TV connections. If MoJo had a bunch of recruiting successes, I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.  

Nero and staff fired Lonergan and replaced him with MoJo. It's in their interest to see those choices look smart and succcessful. I beleive that biases their opinions and pushes them to be more optimistic of MoJo's future than an objective observer might see things.

2

the dude3/1/2017 12:39:27 AM

Why would the Canadian connection now be less relevant? GW would utilize any edge to land a guy immediately eligible drawing broad attention with 2 full years left (very rare circumstance) and it figures Canadian Mojo was a clear edge.  

There have been a few recent national media profiles on Mojo, all rather favorable.  We can now make that happen!? When did GW gain the power to get national media articles on demand and to dictate their content too?

Nero's future is not tied to Mojo merely because he named him interim Coach.  Nero's future hinges a lot on the success of his one flagship program, Men's Hoops.  He has a huge incentive to make the best possible hire, and witnessing his other hires should strike confidence in those who have observed them.  Proving the interim choice was correct pales in comparison as an incentive.

 

maine colonial3/1/2017 7:23:32 AM

BF: Your Trumpian outrage is very comical. For over 140 years, GW and Georgetown openly discriminated against African-Americans. That's a fact. Neither school recruited John Thompson Jr. when he was a D.C. basketball star so instead he went to Providence College. Then after he became a successful high school basketball coach, GW didn't hire him to be the men's basketball coach and instead chose Carl Sloane. Two decades and three more white basketball coaches later, GW still hadn't been to the NCAA tournament in 30 years. It took the hiring of Mike Jarvis, an African-American coach, in 1990 to rebuild the program and take GW back to the NCAA tournament in his third season. Meanwhile during that same period, Thompson took Georgetown to 16 NCAA tournaments. I'm still bitter that I attended GW during the 1980s instead of the 1990s. 

Please let me know if any of the facts I've stated are inaccurate. Please keep your alternative facts and your faux outrage to yourself. And if you want to brush up on your GW basketball history, here is a good resource: LINK

 

 

1

maine colonial3/1/2017 8:07:34 AM

Here's another inconvenient truth. Tom Penders took his first GW team to the NCAA tournament only because Mike Jarvis had left it fully stocked with stars he had recruited and coached: Shawnta; Yegor; Mike King; Pat Ngongba; Francisco De Miranda...So ML was really the first white GW basketball coach to recruit a team and take it to the NCAA tournament since 1961 when William Reinhart was the coach and GW didn't even allow African-Americans to play on the team: LINK  

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tc23/1/2017 8:58:51 AM

What's the story on coaches on the women's team?  It is what it is.

bo knows3/1/2017 12:59:00 PM

ML initially recruited Steeves out of Hotchkiss for whatever it is worth.

the dude3/1/2017 2:22:47 PM

Yes, ML naturally involved in all recruitment (in this case twice) question is AND which assistant. I think its pretty safe to conclude the Canadian assistant played a role in landing our Canadian transfer Steeves.

MC, I think its a valid point noting the success of minority Coaches for DC's 2 biggest programs. If memory serves, given Jarvis' success I believe there was talk of it when Hobbs was hired as well.  I certainly would not make a decicion based heavily on that, but worth noting.

2

maine colonial3/1/2017 4:29:54 PM

I'm guessing Gtown will make their decision based heavily on that if JTIII resigns or is forced out and is replaced.

tim43/1/2017 7:46:37 PM

I jinxed MoJo

Sorry man

maine colonial3/1/2017 9:01:38 PM

No you didn't! GW wins!

1

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