the dude2/11/2018 3:27:26 PM
1. Rhode Island had brilliant HS recruiting, year after year, 2013/14, 2014/15, 2015 2016/17.
2. GW had awful HS recruiting year after year 2013/14, 2014 2015 2016/17
What you are seeing at the top of the league, and the bottom of the league is the product of that, its that simple. The best recruiting in the league, and the worst recruiting in the league.
URI has been led, and still is led by EC Matthews the first 2013/14 recruit of years, and the flood of good players kept on coming year after year. GW out of 11 recruits from 2013 to 2015/16, will graduate 1, 4 year HS recruit, YW. One out of 11. The other 10 transfered, 9 down, 1 left ML after a few weeks after the 2016 season, the other 9 all down. 11 recruits, 1 graduating 4 year senior
1 team at the top of the league, 1 team at the bottom of the league. Forseeable, predicted, and discussed for years. For all the deflection, wishful thinking, and out right deception, facts remain facts, and outcomes are based on facts, not deflection, deception or even wishful thinking.
the dude2/11/2018 4:04:45 PM
Rhode Island has the #5 RPI in the country
neil2/11/2018 4:45:01 PM
A tale of one program GW. Last place. Fire the entire staff
bigfan2/11/2018 4:48:02 PM
Recruiting is a primary job description of an assistant cooach.
So refresh our memories. What happened to those assistant coaches who were the drivers of GW's " worst recruiting in the league"?
Where are those assistant coaches who failed GW sitting now?
neil2/11/2018 4:56:34 PM
A point of 2 programs. GW last place. That says it all. Fire the staff.
the mvit2/11/2018 4:56:35 PM
Foreseeable? Predicted? Well, not exactly. You, The Dude, predicted that GW would finish with a 9-9 conference record this season. That doesn’t sound like a prediction for the worst record in the conference. It also doesn’t sound like the record of the team that would have the worst recruiting in the conference. But at 3-9, it certainly is convenient for you to “forget” your earlier prediction. Who knows? Maybe they win 6 in a row and you will have nailed it?
the mv2/11/2018 4:57:29 PM
Another typo by me (the last post).
chet2/11/2018 5:44:05 PM
I would have guessed, 4 -5 years back, that Hurley would be the guy who abused his players, got drunk and disorderly on a road trip, and got canned for cause.
Not St. Mike of Bowie,
But, Dude is right on. Hurley has built himself a program, while Lonergan has buried a program.
Meanwhile, it seems the Mail Van takes notes on every little thing Dude says, so 3-4 months on, he can accuse him of lying, and then "throw it in his face, over and over and over again," as Mail Van enjoys saying.
I thought St. Elizabeth's was closed long ago. Are you in need ofr medication, Mail Van?
ruserious2/11/2018 5:52:40 PM
ML hates Hurley with a passion. He must sit at home ( or at work in the gym basement) with steam coming out of his ears.
chet2/11/2018 6:00:33 PM
That's sort of like the MV-Dude relationship, RU.
I can see why St. Mike is envious of Hurley.
I wonder what's got the Mail Van so God damned envious, that he even uses the Dude's name?
thomas2/11/2018 6:06:16 PM
Chet, those things(abusing players, getting drunk and disorderly on a road trip and getting fired for cause) may still happen to Hurley at Rhode Island or his next job. Hurley is in his mid 40's, so he has plenty of time, along with arrogance and hostility left inside of him to end up like ML and the rest of the Angry, Abusive Coaches who got fired. It's way early to count out Hurley!!
chet2/11/2018 6:11:59 PM
More reassurances from the man who actually knows college basketball.
Any notion as to why Mail Van is so envious of Dude? Is it the insouciance? (I am using up all my 9th grade French here.) Cause Mail Van really is a piece of work. Imagine being in a room with a loon like that?
rich maier2/11/2018 7:53:23 PM
Chet, you never know MV may turn it around in the future. Mieux vos tard que jamais. (9th grade French)
the dude2/11/2018 8:31:13 PM
Thomas, Chet, well said
newgwfan2/11/2018 8:34:20 PM
If we were being objective and trying to assess the differences in the two programs. They were on a very similar trajectory. I believe URI was a year behind GW as Hurley was hired in 2012 where ML was hired in 2011.
Hurley's first five seasons:
Year 1: 8-21 (Rebuilding Program)
Year 2: 14-18 (Signs of life, not there yet)
Year 3: 23-10 (NIT Second Round, Promise starting to be fulfilled)
Year 4: 17-15 (Didn't live up to expectations, no post season play)
Year 5: 25-10 (Great success, NCAA Round of 32)
Year 6: Just tremendous success TBD
That looks pretty similar to the trajectory of ML:
Year 1: 10-21 (Not a good start, rebuilding program)
Year 2: 13-17 (Signs of life, not there yet)
Year 3: 24-9 (Overacheived, NCAA Appearence)
Year 4: 22-13 (Bit of disappointment, NIT Appearance)
Year 5: 28-10 (Lot of promise with team considering OOC performance, ultimately disappointing conference play, NIT Championship)
Year 6: Never Happened
Those are the facts. We can parse high school recruiting success. No doubt Hurley performed better in this capacity. He also "should" recruit better given his connections, and the fact that he's recruiting to URI (it's not really known for it's academic rigor). But no doubt his recruiting was better than ML. It's also a fact that ML never had the opportunity to coach in his 6th year, and yes that's on him. But unfortunately, those that live and die by recruiting rankings can't say that GW would be in the same exact position if ML was coaching at the moment. We can't say it would be better, we can't say it would be worse. We will simply never know. We know that the administration fired him. We also know that they settled a lawsuit with him. We then know that the administration hired a coach to replace him, who is in his 1st or 1A season as a head coach with no previous experience.
gwb2/11/2018 9:19:10 PM
I say this a lot when I post here but in college basketball you win with guards who can make plays and can score.
Talking about URI. They start 4 guards they pretty much have an 8 man rotation with 6 guards and 2 bigs. They are so good because each and every one of their guards are just dogs.
They aren’t pretty boys or too flashy they just all can get a bucket when you need it and all can make plays.
Jared Terrell 6’3 215 guard. 17.5 a game 42% from three. He’s big, strong, tough, a good athlete and fearless. He looks and plays like a grown man. He can break down a defender. He’s developed into a consistent shooter from range and he can make plays 2nd on the team is assists.
EC Matthews 6’5 wing isn’t a great shooter from range by percentage but he’s just a professional scorer. His scoring has dipped a little (13.5ppg) with Terrell emerging more this season but still he’s been getting buckets since day one avg 14.3 as a frosh, 16.9soph, post all tear 14.9ppg last year. Hes great driving left, can create off the dribble has mid range game can finish at the Rim has great touch and an array of floaters and is a streaky shooter. His numbers don’t lie he can flat out score.
Stanford Robinson is listed as 6’4 guard 3rd leading scorer 10 a game, 2nd leading rebounder. Might be their best defender and he is just tough and a perfect glue guy. He doesn’t take a ton of 3s but shot 37 percent last year 35 percent this year. Another guy who can get you buckets in many ways. Dropped 21 vs Oregon in the tournament last year. Does the little things you need to win.
Jeff Dowtin 6’3 your prototypical PG runs the team very well has 129 assists to just 30 turnovers. His ratio has been impressive since he started getting major minutes last year. He gets his team into offense is a great playmaker gets to the cup can finish and again another kid who can score. He just got better and better last year and has turned that into consistency this year. Only took 38 3s this year but hit 15 for 39.5 percent. And again can explode offensively dropped 23 in the Tournament on Creighton in their first round win last year
Fats Russel. 5’10 dog. Fearless just coming off the bench with energy scoring, defending making plays. Already two 20 point games this season as a freshman on a top 20 team. Not consistent yet but he is going to be a player once some of the older players graduate.
Jarvis Garrett is the 6th guard at 6’0. His soph year he averaged 12.5ppg and had 146 assists. Has since taken a step back because of their depth but had 17 vs Davidson last game 18 vs Alabama earlier. 43 percent from 3 and just another hard nosed guard who defends scores and can make plays.
You got 6 guards who just go get it. They all can score shoot defend and make plays. 5-6 guys who on a given night can get you 20.
The thing I notice about them is they all have that killer instinct. They are intimidating and they play to crush you. They have that fire that’s what I mean by dogs. They have the mindset that if they need to they can take over a game.
Point here is since Mo Creek left we haven’t had guards who can make plays and who can score. As much as I love Yuta he’s not a go to guy he’s not aggressive enough and he just doesn’t have that killer instinct. You need guards who want the ball and just want to give you the business every play. Not to take anything away but Yuta is nice and quiet. He is very skilled but he’s not breaking down defenders he’s not taking over a game and he’s our best offensive player...
Jair is a fine player in my mind but he’s not a dog. He’s not athletic or quick or a playmaker. He’s really just a shooter I haven’t seen much that shows he can attack and finish his game is mostly mid range and long range jumpers. That said, he’s our 2nd leading scorer. With the right mix not having to run an offense I think he can be more effective.
I don’t think ML got it because the only 2 playmakers, scorers, guys who could break down defenders I saw in the past few years were Kethan and Jorgensen. He didn’t know how to use or develop them was impatient with their styles of play and chased them out.
I honestly think MOJO gets it. I truly believe he is so handcuffed because Jair is not a PG but there was no other option. Mazzulla has been solid but he’s still young he’s developing and he’s getting more chances but it was very clear he wasn’t ready to just come in take over and run the show.
I truly think we need to give him a fair chance. Terry has the dog in him and he is MOJOs first real recruit with no strings attached. From what I see Armel is a playmaker and extremely quick and apparently looks really really good in practices. DJ can also score and has great size. We’ve seen success here with high major players transferring down. Again, I think MOJO gets it and envisions Armel and Shandon as PGs for the future. Mazzulla has proved he deserves minutes and has the size to also play off the ball. Nolan and Jair as your 2 guards. Mezzie and DJ at the other wings and at the 4 if we play small ball. We need more shooters so I do like Maceo as well he needs to get some more reps.
When I look at our team currently I believe we have some better individual players than our record shows but we are missing that void of having a guard who can just take over and make plays. To not have a true PG or elite scorer or playmakers is just a killer in college ball.
Loved Joe Mac but he wasn’t a playmaker breaking down defenders taking over games, Yuta isn’t, Pato wasn’t, Mitola wasn’t, Sina wasn’t. Matt Hart wasn’t. No athletes, no extremely quick guards, no playmakers. We were pretty good but with elite guards we could have been at the top of the conference.
However, I think Terry has the killer instinct and the ability to become a playmaker and will develop even more. It looks like Armel has it. From what I’ve seen on film Shandon has it, Mezzie has lots of ability and has that potential with his size athleticism and skills. DJ is also very skilled and can score.
The PG and guard position is just so important and our lack of it is just killing us offensively. Because we can defend we can rebound we’ve shown that. But we can’t score. We are one of the worst teams in the nation offensively. We don’t get a lot of assists we don’t have playmakers.
I can’t excuse him completely because I think given our personnel and lack of playmakers we need to play a more uptempo style so that we aren’t relying on Jair a non PG to run an offense and make plays. Take that out of his hands and take advantage of our finishers and athletes Terry Bo Yuta. Pat and Toro can also run but it is what it is.
But these literally aren’t MOJOs recruits. Terry is the only player playing MOJO signed since interim tag was removed and I sure like what I see from him. I also see Mazzulla improving.
I say give it a chance and be patient Colonials because if these guards/wings he’s landing become dogs I think they can be we are going to be very good in 2 years.
thinker2/11/2018 9:45:09 PM
Excellent post GWB.
Very well argued and informative.
the dude2/11/2018 10:31:14 PM
GWB, that really is a tour de force post. Fantastic stuff.
bobo2/11/2018 11:31:53 PM
NewGWFan with by far the best post of this thread. Nothing else needs to be said.
pembo2/11/2018 11:45:46 PM
I very much doubt that GW would be this bad under Lonergan. At all three of his head coaching stops, his teams avoided seasons anywhere near this bad once his recruits were in place. In fact, at all three stops, his teams were consistent winners.
The poor performance of this year's GW team is due in part to transfers that occurred after Lonergan was fired and to the failure of the new coach to succeed in the transfer market despite having large amounts of playing time available. (Lonergan typically did well in the transfer market). The new coach also simply isn't as good as Lonergan at coaching, as is to be expected given the experience gap.
I'm not saying Lonergan is Hurley's equal or that his firing wasn't justified (I'm not taking any position on the tired topic of the firing in this post). But I think you have to be a true hater to imagine a Lonergan team (by which I mean a time he built) being as bad as this year's edition of GW. Certainly, there is no precedent for it.
the dude2/12/2018 12:14:11 AM
1. Many of the Guards recruits at least got on the court for GW. We've had zero, literally zero depth in the Frontcourt going back many years, because we had so many guys like Goss, Cimino, Swan etc. Cimino and Swan are now 4th year Seniors barely playing for 330 KenPom teams. Goss will be one next year.
2. Consider the list of recruits GWB laid out. Then compare to GW's recruits in those year
3. Mojo was hired on March 29th 2017, 9 months ago. Trying to daily, run out of town, GW's new Head Coach 9 months into the job is just pathetic. Every GW fan I talk to is eager to see what Mojo will do at GW, and they don't scratch their heads as to why team is where it is at the moment. They like Terry Nolan, they are impressed with getting Zeigler immediately eligible, they like the class of HS recruits we have coming and the 2 transfers, a BCS high recruit and a guy who tore it up as a Freshman in a small conference.
dominic2/12/2018 7:22:53 AM
I'd rather get drunk with St. Mike than with any of the Hurleys. So, at least there's that.
bobo2/12/2018 9:05:30 AM
Well said Pembo. Pembo and NEWGWFAN with best posts on this thread so far.
dom2/12/2018 9:14:36 AM
Well said, Bobo. That's your best post this year, so far.
tess tickals2/12/2018 9:40:24 AM
Guess you should have gone on the Japan trip, Dominic
newgwfan2/12/2018 9:43:02 AM
One thing that you have to give ML credit for that I would say he's done a better job with than Hurley would be the transfer market. Now you can say that's because he recruited poorly, but last I checked every bucket by Tyler counted the same as a bucket by Yuta. To piggy back on what PEMBO said, that this behavior mirrored what he had done at his time at UVM. He brought in a few transfers MOJO & Matt Glass off the top of my head who were at MSU and UMASS and brought them down a level where they experienced larger roles.
2011: Armwood (Nova)
2013: Maurice Creek (IU), Ryan McCoy (Manhatten)
2014: Tyler Cavanaugh (Wake)
2015: Alex Mitola (Dartmouth), Jaren Sina (Seton Hall)
2016: Patrick Steeves (Harvard)
Hurley's incoming transfers included:
2012: Alwayne Bigby (Northeastern), Gilvydas Biruta (Rutgers), Jarelle Reischel (Rice), Biggie Minnis (Texas Tech)
2015: Four McGlynn (Towson), Stanford Robinson (Indiana), Kuran Iverson (Memphis)
The more you look at it, these coaches are pretty similar. Makes sense why they both were considered as 1A and 1B for the Rutgers job in 2016.
tess tickals2/12/2018 10:05:43 AM
Does it really matter if Lonergan recruited transfers better than Hurley? Hurley is in the top 20, Lonergan will never coach again. Get a grip!
nj colonial2/12/2018 10:07:00 AM
Lonergan is gone, you guys have got to move on. Focus on pressuring the administration to do a top-notch, national search for a new A.D.
newgwfan2/12/2018 10:21:41 AM
It's a little tough to analyze a AD search. I don't even know how to start compiling a list of "good" AD's. How about you go start a thread about it, and then we will come and comment on it.
The Dude started this thread and wanted to make an arguement that the reason that GW is currently at the bottom of the A-10 is soley because of the poor recruiting that happened after the 2013 season through 2017. He also implies that the poor performance is only due to the high school recruiting and is independent of any transfers that play on the team. He makes this strong arguement by comparing it against the top team in the league URI who has recruited well in the high school ranks. He also thinks it's deflection, wishful thinking, or deception to think otherwise.
Instead of taking a nuansed approach that maybe the team is in last place due to say some combination of sub-par high school recruiting, losing an established head coach, elevating an inexeprienced assistant coach with no head coaching experience, poor leadership from university/administration, not bringing in an experienced assistant coach to assist the new interim head-coach, more player turnover in 2017? Man any of these or any combination of these along with say poor play/coaching this season is the reason the team is in last place currently.
endzone922/12/2018 10:40:12 AM
I may be wrong, but doesn't GW have higher admission standards (even for Men's Basketball) than URI? Since Omar-gate, that has been part of the handicap of recruiting for any GW coach. ML and Mojo have a smaller pool of candidates to recruit than the URI's and VCU's of the world.
the mv2/12/2018 10:54:00 AM
Yes, NewGWFan. That's exactly right. Well articulated.
Catching up with this thread this morning and I have to comment on the latest from Planet Senility: the accusation that I am envious of The Dude. Let's start with the notion that there are many posters here who, while I wouldn't use the word envious, I do greatly admire for very specific reasons...posters like Herve for his outstanding writing ability (which is greatly missed), FQ for his ability to make great sense of advanced statistics, Mentzinger for his consistently spot-on perspective, LSF for his humor, DMVPiranha for his extensive research and analysis, Bo, Skittles and Moco Observer for their behind-the-scene insights, BM for his commitment to provide updated recruiting information, Thomas for being a great fan of the sport..don't mean to leave others out but this could go on and on. Suffice it to say that The Dude does not make this list in any way, shape or form. Neither does anyone else whose interest is to sabotage this board.
The Dude has a very bad history here of rubbing things in people's faces. He shoves his beliefs down people's throats, making the same points dozens if not hundreds of times. He has taken something as innocuous as a prediction and thrown that in my face, Bo's face, LSF's face, and I'm guessing others to when those predictions are even off by a small margin. He mercilessly tore down Paul Jorgensen and Jordan Roland here. It's really OK to express here that a player might in your opinion be overrated or playing too much. But his attacks here on these two players badly crossed any possible line of decency.
He is also extremely disingenuous. He predicted a 17-15, 9-9 (in conference) record for this year's team. Then, when they aren't performing anywhere near that level, he pontificates on how or why anyone here would ever expect them to be any better than their current record, given the serious lack of talent (the exact same talent that was in place when he provided his predicted records). He is the only person on the planet who thinks that MoJo was first hired to be GW's head coach in March, 2017. He of course doesn't really believe this but since it makes for a better excuse regarding MoJo's lack of success to date, he turns into George Costanza ("it's not a lie....if you believe it.") He is clearly of the mindset that if he says something often enough, others will eventually believe him. And I suppose to his credit, he has managed to suck in a few of you (or maybe you're all him....who knows or cares at this point?) Fortunately, many here understand what he's trying to pull off and are bright enough to see right through him.
So no, envious is not quite the word I'd use to describe my thoughts about The Dude.
porter712/12/2018 10:57:26 AM
Bigfan made a good point that everyone continues to ignore. Recruiting is generally not handled by the head coach for most college teams. Normally, there are certain assistants that are the chief recruiters. So, for the folks who have blastered the recruiting over the past few years, can someone please answer me this.
Who was the primary recruiter for MLs recruiting classes?
Who was the primary recruiter for MoJo's recruiting classes?
The Dude likes to talk about MoJo being on year one. He's not. He, and the staff, have been here for five years. He's on year 5. I'll take away last years class as a wash because of the interum coaching status throwing a wrench in everything. However, this staff was the guys who did the recruiting during ML's "bad classes" that are recruiting now. I don't see how everyone is expecting dramatically different results. Just because MoJo is the main guy instead of ML, poof, everything is now 100x better. Why?
In fact, as excited as I am about this class, I was equally excited about Swan, Cimino, and Toro. All guys who were "better recruits" based on the scouting services that these guys. We don't really know how good a player is until they step on the court. It seems kind of silly to compare one set of guys based on hindsight to another set of guys based on potential and expect to make an accurate comparison.
The more time that goes on, the more I think MoJo has to be given a chance, mostly because it'd bring more chaos to fire another coach. However, I think we really need to see new blood at the asssitant level if you really want to see some changes.
bo knows2/12/2018 10:57:47 AM
You would be 100% correct Endzone92. This is part of the GW problem in recruiting. We generally won't take kids lower than 1100 combined SATs without an appeal. URI and VCU taking kids with 930 (minimum eligibility). That is a huge handicap that the Dude is obviously unaware of. MOCO Observer will tell you there are kids who go elsewhere in A-10 that GW can't even recruit even if they wanted them. That's a problem.
A second point that the Dude glosses over is that half of our frontcourt that should be playing this year has transferred. You can't mention just Cimino and Goss without also mentioning Smith and Marfo. Anyone think we wouldn't be better off with those two on the roster this year?
URI is not our peer school in any way shape or form. State school with lower admission standards. The correct comparison should be Davidson.
gw05092/12/2018 11:04:48 AM
I agree with NJ Colonial that the only way to get any change is to engage with the decision-makers. If you are annoyed about the lack of transparency from the last AD, demand that the new AD be more transparent when he/she is hired. You can talk/write to LeBlanc and others on the Board about the AD search. Or you can empty your bank account and become a T. Boone Pickens-type boster and run the GW athletics program. This is the last chance for a few years to actually influence the fate of the basketball program.
I will also say that NEWGWFAN makes a good point, it's obviously a combination of both coaching and recruiting that equals success. But I think the deficit on our team at least is mostly on the personnel side. Outside of 05-06, 06-07, and 13-14, we have mostly been a bottom to middle-of-the-pack team in conference. And that is with two pretty successul coaches in KH and ML. Our three best years in the last 15 or so seasons were with arguably our strongest rosters. 15-16 should be on that list but for whatever reason we folded in conference play.
We saw last year that a talented roster can overcome an inexperienced coach and put us where we usually are, middle-of-the-pack A-10. We've obviously seen this year that a team with far inferior talent than last year, combined with the same inexperienced coach, has us bottoming out to a point not really seen since 07-08 and 08-09. So I don't necessarily agree that a different coach would have this team demonstrably better than we've shown. We'd have probably won maybe 4 more games (let's say 2 OOC and 2 Conference). That puts us middle of the pack A-10 where we normally always are, and given the down year in the A-10, no shot to make the tournament outside of winning the conference tournament. Impossible to say how this hypothetical coach would be doing on the recruiting trail, but all indications show Mojo is doing fairly well on this front.
I think, therefore, it is necessary to see how the players Mojo brings in next year do and whether they show the potential to be solid A-10 players. When we have the right personnel, we have the chance to bubble up and contend to make NCAAs and to win the A-10 regular season title. If Mojo does a poor job coaching that personnel and squanders the talent he recruits, then obviously it's time to make a move. If it shows that the players Mojo is recruiting are not A-10 caliber players, then it's also time to make a move. But I don't think it's fair to judge Mojo on this season when clearly it is the talent that is lacking. Winning an additional 3-4 games would put us in the same position as we will end up this year: not playing in a postseason tournament.
gw05092/12/2018 11:13:26 AM
And I misssed ENDZONE's post while I was typing my last one. SAT standards absolutely have something to do with who we can recruit. I'd also throw St. Joe's in there as a school we should be able to compare ourselves to in regards to competition for recruits.
newgwfan2/12/2018 11:34:16 AM
I'm going to digress a bit, to discuss my impression of recruiting...
I'm not going to claim I know everything about recruiting but my assumption it goes something like this. You have some kind of database or "big board" that your grooming and your probably looking at kids starting let's say in 9th grade. So if your MOJO right now you have a list of players for 2019 (Juniors in HS), an list of players for 2020 (Soph in HS) and a list of players for 2021 (Freshman in HS). Your probably constantly grooming these lists as you become aware of prospects, this is probably the guys in the 2020 and 2021 classes more so that 2019. But your also, probably adding information constantly, things like academic updates (SAT Scores), stats from high school and aau games, measurables, all kinds of data points. Your probably moving players around on this board based on your priorities and your scholarships you have available, and if they've committed to another program. So maybe you have the top 5 PG, the top 5 SG, the top 5 SF, top 5 PF, and top 5 C. Based on your team needs, the players interest in your school and different factors, you are using this board to gauge who might be out of reach, within reach, and backup options. I think this is a collaborative efforts with any staff. With that said, some coaches probably take more active roles in this while others are more passive and would delegate to experienced assistant coaches, especially those with say certain ties to a region, or AAU program or whatever.
Anyone who was paying attention, knows that ML took what I would call a very active role at least in being present on the recruiting trail for better or worse. He was constantly at high school games, and was at least trying to make relationships and evaluate players. His assistants were expected to do the same. So I would classify it under ML regime that it was a team effort, but ML was HEAVILY involved and no doubt probably had the final say, and gave direction on if an assistant should persue a recruit. I think this is pretty normal protocol.
I think now that Mojo is in charge, he has the authority on who we recruit. So it's possible that ML didn't value athleticism as much in his guards given the track record of who he recruited. So maybe that's something that Mojo given full authority will prioritize. So when someone like Terry Nolan comes along, that might be someone that MOJO would prioritize as his top player at SG, where ML may have put him at say 5 on his "board", who knows?
With that said, I'm not sure someone like say Tyler Cavenaugh who ML recruited while at UVM, would end up picking GW if MOJO was the head coach when he was on the market. ML had a relationship with the player, and knew his skill set and convinced him this was the best place for him. Now I could be wrong and Mojo might have made as good or a better pitch, again we'll never know. But I think this is another benefit of having an experienced Head Coach on the roster, who can cultivate existing relationships.
Ultimately my point is this. Mojo was part of the coaching staff making the decisions on who to recruit during the downswing 2013-2017. Is he to blame for it, no, he didn't have final authority. He also doesn't get the credit for the transfers who panned out during this time. Does he get a pass for the time when he was the interim coach, of course, that was a tough situation, landing Nolan was a great move and the timing was perfect, that fell into his lap and he capitalized. Now is the 2018 class and on his responsibility, without a doubt. These players know the situation they are signing up for. He's had plenty of time to evaluate these player to fit the mold of his program. My issues with Mojo have nothing to do with his recruiting. In fact, that's the only area where I've been impressed. My issues are completely with his game planning, ability to motivate/teach/instruct, improve the players on the court, produce results, adjust with-in a game.
rich maier2/12/2018 12:02:30 PM
Porter71, i agree with you about recruiting being handled by the Asst Coaches. So I assume Zeke, Creek, Mitola and others were not recruited by ML. Good to know where the credit belongs. Thanks.
dominic2/12/2018 12:10:37 PM
Rich, thanks for wading through, and disregarding the usual bullshit. You make the board easier to read.
free quebec2/12/2018 12:30:14 PM
I wasn't going to wade into this ad nausum sh*tshow of a thread, but I have two things to add.
To 0509, you say it's not fair to judge MoJo on this year because the talent is lacking. I completely disagree.
First, the main reason talent is lacking is becuase talent that was here didn't want to play for MoJo. 3 would-be starters transferred out after playing for him for one season. We had a terrific recruiting class last year (at least, by GW standards over the last 20 years). Colin Smith was one of hte best freshman bigs we've had in a long time, probably since Pops (I think Smith was better as a freshman than KevLar, but that's debatable). Toro showed a lot of talent, Marfo was highly regarded and showed the ability to have a big game vs. FSU, and whatever you think about him, Bolden has talent. Not only did two of those guys leave rather than stick around under MoJo, but two would-be starting guards in Jordan Roland and Jaren Sina also left early. While in all four cases, there are rumors that they didn't think MoJo could coach them up enough, the one thing we know for a fact is that one of Roland's people actually went on the record by name saying that the coaching staff was the reason he transferred.
So if there's no talent, it's partly becuase the talent MoJo inherited didn't think he was the best choice for their basketball future. You can't simply dismiss that.
Second, regardless of talent-level, you can still evaluate his coaching. The talent is not so bad that we should be the 235th rated team. Most of us have watched the team long enough to understand the talent level, but hold the coach accountable by grading on a curve. As has been noted on this thread, there were people here who thought the talent on the team and MoJo's skill at coaching them was enough to get us to a .500 record in a down league. Instead, it turns out that this is the worst A-10 I have ever seen in 30 years of watching the program - and despite the horrible league opponents, we're still on track to finish last or close to it.
Third on the question of judging his coaching despite the lack of talent, one of the main jobs of a coach is to develop players. It's not just about signing them and then ignoring them for four years. it's about teaching. Fundamentals, schemes, how to think on the court, how to rebound, how to move without the ball, how to move your feet on defense, how to help and recover. To be sure, the execution is compromised by the lack of talent, but we have seen two years of MoJo developing players, and honestly I think I saw more player development under Tom Penders than I do now. Some players have even regressed as the season (or the two seasons) have gone on.
Fourth, we can judge in-game coaching. If you watched the GMU game on TV this weekend, the announcers kept talking about "let's see what adjustments MoJo makes," but then we never saw much. We didn't even see us switch much to the same D we played at home where Yuta just takes Otis Livingston out of the game. Instead, we either sat in the zone forever or switched every screen in man defense, both of which failed over and over and over. I would also add the time out problem here, but honestly, he's shown improvement the last two games on using TOs to settle the team down before an opponent's run gets too out of hand.
The bottom line of all this is that, insofar as 0509's way of thinking represents most fans and his bosses, then it's actually good for MoJo that Sina, Roland, Colin Smith, and Marfo left rather than play for him this year. If you can't be held accountable in year 2 as long as you have little talent, then it's better for the talent to leave than to risk being judged on your coaching.
The second thing I have to add to this thread, besides the response to 0509, is that the key to winning at GW is to be able to win with the types of players you can land here.
- Jarvis got international kids, and he was able to take borderline qualifiers (Shawnta Rogers and Mike King, if I recall correctly, were the first freshman to start playing second semester becuase they got their SAT scores up in the first semester). He found kids he could get a GW and he coached them up into consistent winners.
- Tom Penders inherited a great team, but then could not land the players he needed. Penders' system relied on guards shooting at will and bigs setting screens and getting rebounds. He landed the guards he needed for his system with no problem (Chris Monroe, Val Brown, TJ Thompson, and JuCo PG Bernard Barrow), but that system requires super-athletic bigs who are shot block/rebound types, but don't need the ball. Getting a bunch of those types to forsake BCS schools for GW is very difficult.
- Karl Hobbs ran a system that required having the most athletic team and letting them use that athleticism to win one-on-one matchups. He crushed those first two recruiting classes plus Mo Rice, in part by taking kids from schools other schools wouldn't touch. Whether you believe his recruiting dropped off before Omargate or that the recruiting drop-off was solely because of Omargate, the fact is, once Hobbs was unable to get guys who fit his system into GW, it collapsed very, very badly for him.
- Lonergan ran a system that didn't need great athletes or require us to beat out too many BCS schools for players. He landed the great core 4 and filled in gaps with transfers very effectively. He also coached those players well into his system. That was the key - that he could win with the kind of players who GW would take and for whom we could win recruitng battles.
The jury is still out on MoJo on that front. He seems to want to switch screens and run more (he's said that) so he wants more athletic guys. Howevr, while GW was, briefly, the most athletic team in the country under Hobbs, with the closing of the sketchy Prep Show loophole, it's unlikely we're going to be able to recruit enough high level athletes to consistently beat teams solely with athleticism.
So, in my opinion, we need a coach who has the teaching ability, the scheme, and the in-game feel to win with a team that may not always be the most athletic. He or she needs to be able to win with the type of players they can consistently bring here.
It's why I think there is risk in hiring a BCS asssistant as our next coach (sure, they can land the top athletes to their BCS school, but can they convince them to come here over BCS schools?), and why there is risk in hiring someone from a lower level (Lonergan, for example, was too willing to take the same guys for our bench that he would have taken at Vermont - like Bryant or Griffin - rather than consistently aiming and landing better players than that, even with starters locked in above them).
Winning at GW comes down to two things: Winning with the types of players you can land here (by coaching them up), and making sure that talent stays here. MoJo has shown no ability to do either of those things at this point. I wish I could be as optimistic as some of you that next year will show he can.
porter712/12/2018 12:36:57 PM
NewGWFan - I think you made some good points there. I think you're 100% right that MoJo is probably going to recruit a different type of player. I hadn't given much thought to that, mainly because even 2 years in I'm not 100% sure what type of system he wants to run. I think we agree that recruiting is a group effort and you are right that ML seemed very involved. The point I have is most of the group involved is the same and too many people here are making it sound like recruiting is only determined by the head coach, and that is not the case. We've seen under multiple different coaches here, Hobbs specifically, that changes in the assistant coaches affects recruiting.
Rich - If you're going to be a smart ass, at least try to follow the conversation. I'm talking about high school recruiting cause that's the argument the Dude brings up over and over again. Zeke, Creek and Mitola were transfers. Also, I never said that ML gets no or all the credit, I'm saying it's a team effort. However, if you want to talk about basketball like adults and discuss ML's first class of McDonald, Savage, Pato and Larsen, then yes, I give the assistants as much credit for putting that team together as I do to ML.
bobo2/12/2018 12:53:51 PM
On the otherhand ML recruiting was abysmal in his last four cycles.
newgwfan2/12/2018 12:54:34 PM
Wasn't MOJO not on the staff when they were recruiting Joe, Kethan, Pato, Larsen, Paris? Wasn't that Sutton, Strickland, Hajj?
newgwfan2/12/2018 12:56:15 PM
Chet has it right. Hurley buillt his program, while Lonergan buried what he had built.
porter712/12/2018 12:56:23 PM
I think he was DBO back then. He was on the staff, but wasn't an assitant yet.
newgwfan2/12/2018 1:10:48 PM
Not me at 12:56:15. Probably Chet like usual posting under other people aliases.
bo knows2/12/2018 1:18:25 PM
You do all relaize that colleges are only allowed to have 3 people on road recruiting in July at any one time? Other times I believe it is 2. That usually means the DBO and 3rd assistant aren't doing that much recruiting. Carry-on.
former colonial2/12/2018 1:24:18 PM
Newgwfan really hit the nail on the head here.
former colonial2/12/2018 1:28:01 PM
Chet you knocked it of the park.
rich maier2/12/2018 1:48:31 PM
Porter71, here is an adult question for you: how did a team with JoeMac, Pato, Larsen, TC and Yuta not make the NCAAs? Coaching malpractice?
pippen2/12/2018 2:48:44 PM
ML was unable to recruit once word got out he was an abusive prick.
porter712/12/2018 3:14:15 PM
I think there are a few reasons.
1. The team talent wise, while great for GW, that group was probably a borderline NCAA team when compared to the rest of the basketlball world. Looking back on that season with clearer eyes, I think we may have hyped ourselves up too much for how good that team really was because they were great compared to the GW teams we saw at the end of the Hobbs years and how they overachieved the on NCAA tournament year. As a group, they were good enough to beat anyone. The UVA game showed that. But, they needed a great game to do so. I think the team did have some flaws that made them susceptable to losses to teams with equal or slighly worse talent (the St. Joes and St. Boneventures of the conference). Along with GW, I have always been a Syracuse fan and this team reminding me of some of those bubble Syracuse teams. Good enough to beat Duke, bad enough to lose to BC.
2. I think ML sometimes didn't do a great job of keeping the team motivated for games on the road against lower level oppenents. While he was good at getting the team up for big games against top 10 teams, there were always let down games on the road against far inferior teams (DuPaul and St. Louis) that year. When you are a bubble team, you can't lose those games.
So, to answer your question. I don't think it was "malpractice" for that team not to make the NCAAs. I think ML did a good job putting together a very good GW team that ultimately didn't live up to the hype we (myself included) placed on them. I think they over-achieved in one game (UVa), dramatically underachieved in two games and basically played the rest of the season even with the talent on their team and didn't win enough of the toss-up games to get in.
newgwfan2/12/2018 3:18:25 PM
Ah yes, word got out, only locally within the DMV that ML was an abusive prick. Gotcha, cause Nick Griffin, Darien Bryant, Goss they didn't get the memo on that but still came to play for ML. Same thing with Tyler Cavenaugh, Alex Mitola, Jaren Sina. They don't get the internet at those schools, so word didn't travel that far. Yuta also didn't get that memo up in Conneticut, same with Marfo, and Smith.
C'mon let's use some common sense. ML may have as you like to call it been an "abusive prick" but kids were still coming to play for him at GW, and good ones none the less.
Maybe a more nuanced approach on topic would be that in certain circles word got out that ML wasn't the type of coach that certain high school coaches and/or aau coaches would want to funnel top tier talent to? It could have been the rigid offensive system he employed, it could have been fact that you had to go to class and be on track to graduate, it could be that there were no duffel bags with cash to hand out, no bs jobs as assitant coach to give to the AAU coach/father of a prospect, it could be that he criticized his players in the media if they played poorly, it could be he held the accountable for their performance, it could be that he mis-treated them, it could be that bench players were given short leashes. Fact of the matter is that ML never has or never was going to land top 100 kids in his time at GW.
I don't think MOJO will either, and I think that it would take a unicorn of a coach to pull that off at GW while adhering to academic requirements.
gw05092/12/2018 3:24:58 PM
You are right that the departures of Smith, Marfo, and Roland made this team worse. However, even if all three said they left because of the inexperience of Mojo, there is no guarantee they stay if we hired a different coach. They very well could've decided to leave the moment after ML's firing because they didn't want to deal with the uncertainty of who the new coach would be, or for other reasons such as wanting to be closer to home. We don't know who stays or who goes, so let's assume they are not on this team. As for Sina, I think he leaves regardless of whether Mojo was given the job or not. He seemed intent on playing overseas.
What I was getting at is that, in my opinion, we wouldn't be that much better this season with a more Experienced Coach™. It's obviously entirely hypothetical but how many more wins would we have with a Dave Paulsen or Matt McCall-type if Mojo wasn't given the FT job after last season? Enough to get another bid to the CBI? Or would we have improved on last season and made a run at the NITs? Hiring one of those more experienced coaches would perhaps give people more comfort in the potential upward trajectory of the team, and I can understand that. But I don’t think the on-the-court results this year would’ve been that much better.
As for evaluating Mojo, I'm sorry if I came off saying he deserves absolutely no scrutiny. I agree that in the case of Toro and Bolden it is frustrating and disappointing that they have not shown the improvement many hoped they would've this season. I also agree that our offense has looked far too stagnant and the defense Mojo wants to run is ineffective with the lack of quickness our current roster possesses. But even with these faults I don’t think that necessitates canning him after this year. Realistically most schools will give a HC 4 years. Hell Fordham gave Pecora 5 years and he showed no hope after 3. Also, realistically, the new AD will probably want to hire his/her own HC when given the chance so I’d imagine Mojo understands the position he is in. Next year will be VERY telling about Mojo’s HC skill or lack thereof and his future at GW. I do agree with FQ's criteria for coaching success at GW. I have only been a fan of GW since undergrad (thus my name, 05-09), so I've only known Hobbs, ML and now Mojo, so I can't compare Mojo to Penders, et al.
Last thing, if you (not you personally FQ, but those who may share your opinion) are not as optimistic as some here, and believe Mojo’s replacement needs to come before next season, then I implore you to reach out ASAP to those responsible for hiring the new AD and tell them to hire the AD quickly. This may be the only chance for a few years at influencing not only the HC, but the overall direction of the program.
Again, this is all just my opinion. I don't really know anyone in and around GW athletics so I don't know who my "bosses" are.
rich maier2/12/2018 3:44:10 PM
Porter71, thanks for the thoughtful post. I agree we may have overhyped the team. Some of us, myself included, thought we had a shot at the Sweet 16. It was odd how that season played out. If you are a 1971 grad I'm 1 year behind you. We've seen our share of ups and downs. We're down this year and likely more but GW is not out. Think you'd agree.
the dude2/12/2018 4:35:36 PM
Quinipiac, Central Florida, American and Northeastern is where those 4 went. I do consider one a significant loss, based on long term potentional, the Central Florida. The other two were swing and miss recruits who barely played at all as Freshmen on very thin teams.
The top 2 ballyhooed recruits of the last 4 years left for Quinipiac and AU, AU is a 330 KenPom team. He's a 4th senior and not playing for a 330 KenPom team.
Not exactly losing players like Kromah (to national title UConn) Kethan (Sweet 16 Butler) and Pellom (NCAA #8 seed Memphis) Losing players to Quinpiac, Northeastern, AU, Delaware. Those players were a continuity of 4 years of bottom level A10 recruiting.
Who did Rhode Island recruit during those 4 years?
the mv2/12/2018 5:30:54 PM
danjsport2/12/2018 5:35:37 PM
FQ- great post. I appreciated the thoughtful response.
bobo2/12/2018 6:40:46 PM
Hold on there Pippen, he was super abisive, and loathed by the Aau circuit but he did recruit Darian Jelly Bryant.
edward2/12/2018 6:57:12 PM
Would you let your kid near Lonergan? I sure as hell wouldn't.
dave2/12/2018 7:06:38 PM
ML was a pyscho. Did anyone here actually bother to read the WP article? Wouldn't want my kids anywhere near him. Would you? Be honest ...
porter712/12/2018 7:11:14 PM
Rich - Yeah, I also had Sweet 16 fever with that team, especially after the UVa. However, looking back I think we took them at their best and expected that consistently for an entire year, which is hard for any team to do. I'll still take a NIT win any day.
Glad we could come to some agreement, especially with all the acrimony on this board. I've been a GW guy for a shorter period than you (graduated in 02, 71 is just a lucky number), however I agree that we'll be back. A program like ours will have it's ebbs and flows. I just wish that all the ebbs weren't self inflicted.
dmvpiranha2/12/2018 7:16:49 PM
Late to the party I guess. Thanks for the shoutout MV. While I'm glad we hold higher academic standards when recruiting, I don't buy that we are so selective that we struggle to offer many high school players. We just don't try enough. Mojo's recruiting strategy as he's said a few times in interviews is to focus on the DC area along with landing international players and getting good players on the transfer market. While I'm really glad we've started to not only focus on recruiting the DC/Baltimore area and have already landed a couple of recruits from close by (that seemed to be something that ML struggled with his last couple of years as coach), there is no scouting activity outside the Bos-Wash corridor (and next to none outside just DC and NY). That's just putting too many eggs in one basket, especially since a lot of the players that we offer from there hold offers from big programs too, so if we strike out on them we just end up offering players from that area that are a tier below. You can't be lazy when recruiting - notice that the teams that seem to land more talent also offer more players and scout at a more national/global level. Davidson is an exception to the rule because McKillop knows which guys would perfectly fit his system (although that too still requires a full search). That's another issue I have at the moment - I don't know what Mojo is running right now, or what he is planning on running in the future; he said in the offseason that he wants to play uptempo more which would make sense when recruiting athletes. It will be interesting to see whether his system this year was strictly a depth/talent issue or whether he will continue to play slow and grind out wins - with the lack of plays being run I hope we opt for the former next year.
I liked the Littles signing because Neumann and Goretti is one of the premier programs in Philadelphia and an area we haven't really recruited that much in the recent past. That's a good start, but we still have a way to go:
- International (this was supposed to be a focus point for Mojo but so far we haven't really shown an inclination to do so - focusing on Canada, Australia, and areas in Europe/Africa; it's tough to always scout on a global level but many international players now come to the US for high school basketball).
- South (contains the highest per capita of D1 college basketball players after the DC area. Maybe we should start by going further down 95 and hitting the Carolinas, Atlanta, Jacksonville - where we landed Smith, Orlando, Miami. After that, the major metro areas of Texas like Dallas and Houston, and New Orleans/Memphis/St. Louis? Just in general, hitting the major metro areas.)
- Midwest (Chicago - Simeon which is DJ's school is a major basketball program, Detroit, areas in Ohio, even Indiana/Wisconsin/Minnesota which probably have talent as well but not as much).
- West (it might be a tougher sell to convince some to go cross country, but we are literally in the heart of DC which is a major selling point - I would argue that we have the best location of anyone in the conference and the A10 is a good competitive league. Compton Magic have been a pretty good team. Nevada has a ton of basketball programs, and even Washington/Arizona/Colorado. The West is known for more offense than defense, but we could definitely use more scoring in the future.)
In short, the DC area should be the #1 priority but we shouldn't neglect everywhere else (especially if we are recruiting with higher standards - are you telling me that no one else meets our criteria in any of these other regional areas??). If Carm is in charge of NY and DC and has his hands full, we need the other assistants to either take some of the responsibility and hit some of these other areas or change up the staff and get guys who have connections to more areas and AAU teams. Just the Albany City Rocks isn't good enough.
bigfan2/12/2018 9:26:21 PM
To the point, whether the real board poster or posted as fakes, as to whether someone would have their son play for ML?
Actually Alex Mitola, a Dartmouth graduate, after actually being on ML's team, had his brother join his team as a walk-on. Without even a scholarship.
That's a real informed opinion that refutes a lot of the nonsense. A real fact in a sea of allegations, many of which are based on words contradicted by Lonergan's actual life and actions. Real actions, like Alex Mitola's and his family, and how ML leads his life and pursued players as a coach, not just empty accusations about empty words.
And a reality that is overlooked in the article--with no attempt to reach Alex Mitola or anyone and any player (like Creek, Armwood or Garino0 with a side that contrasted with the spoon-fed narrative boosted by disgruntled beachwarmers and a cherry-picked unnamed ex "staff"member--and absent of any discussion abput ML's coaching style.
Much less other unexplored factors contributing in a major way to this whole drama.
pippen2/12/2018 10:28:18 PM
Those posts above are not mine. I am in the pro-ML Camp. The abusive prick is the motherfucker who is stealing screen names. If I find out who it is he’ll be choking on his front teeth. At least it will provide some entertainment at Smitty.
the dude2/12/2018 10:36:51 PM
The reality, unlike a lot of GW recruiting classes from 2013/14 to the 2016/17 class, is that this class looks like a GW Class.
We got a big man with known offers from Miami, Temple, Penn St, UCONN etc etc.
We got a PG chosen over a similar list of schools. And then we got Mezie, who looks to many eyes to be the best of the bunch
This would be in contrast to signing guys like Collin Goss, which left local fans scratching their heads, 1/2 of the A10's worst recruiting class of 2015/16. 2 years after signing the A10's worst recruiting class of 2013/15.
Those are the players GW was signing, the would be upperclassmen, while Rhode Island was signing the list of guys GWB listed. The 3 HS recruits signed for next year, look a lot like when ML was actually recruiting well, his Core 4 class, and a lot less like a bunch of guys destined for 330 KenPom teams, the bulk of whom had no similar offers, came to GW, and barely played at all.
free quebec2/12/2018 11:08:44 PM
0509, when you point to Fordham as an example we should follow for our basketball program, it's time to reevaluate what you are saying.
bobo2/13/2018 1:00:23 AM
Skittles is Mailvan? Mailvan is Skittles? Shocked!
gw05092/13/2018 7:45:45 AM
Not an example to follow, but how many schools fire their coach after 1-2 seasons? Most if not all give them at least 4 years regardless of results.
porter712/13/2018 8:58:46 AM
Dude - this class looks nothing like the 2012 class. You’re just saying that cause you know how they turned out and this class looks good on paper. The 2012 class was mostly under the radar type of guys. They weren’t a bunch of hyped recruits with tons of major offers. It was a couple of decent local kids and 3 internationals from various prep school. This group doesn’t look like that at all.
You know who this groups does look like. Highly regarded big man, intriguing PG prospect with some big offers, under the radar athletic wing. This isn’t 2012 revisited, this looks a lot like 2007 (Katuka/Edwards (take your pick), Miles Beatty, and Xavier Alexander). Remember how those players/teams all turned out?
i know you have to keep trying to make your point that all the ML classes were crap and all the MoJo work is great. You’ve dug yourself into the position pretty deep. It’s just hard to take you seriously when you make comparisons that aren’t accurate, distort facts to fit your argument and play the strengths of player who we honestly don’t know about yet on the college level. I hope they’ll be good and am excited about them. I was excited in 2007 too.
the mv2/13/2018 10:02:12 AM
GW0509, whatever is deemed "conventional wisdom" really should not apply here. Every single facet of this fiasco can be considered unconventional. Was the former head coach justly fired? Some say yes, others aren't necessarily saying no but would like more evidence to support this. The hired interim head coach was the least experienced of three assistant coaches. The interim tag was removed without a head coaching search. The former university president stuck his head in the sand, leaving this to fall to the Provost and Athletic Director. A settlement was reached with the former coach who had been fired with cause. This came at the direction of the new university president, on the eve of the former coach formally filing a wrongful termination lawsuit. The athletic director, who is also in the middle of a gender discrimination lawsuit, mysteriously "resigns" in the middle of a school year, giving two weeks notice and without immediate future employment. The Provost is rumored to be gone at the end of the school year.
Mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake. The next mistake would be honoring a five year commitment to MoJo if you are unconvinced that he is the right coach to lead this program. MoJo is a good guy but what he is not is an experienced coach. This isn't a case of "I wish he had a bit more experience." This is a case of "he hardly has any head coaching experience, and very limited assistant coaching experience." He appears to be in over his head, and I would be saying the same thing about most anyone with the same credentials in the same situation.
I can understand why a GW fan would like to see a brand new coaching staff (to be clear, this is a current staff issue and not just a MoJo issue). Personally, I do realize that coaches can grow in their positions and I would like to see what MoJo can accomplish with next year's team before potentially making a change. But the notion that we need to stand by the choice of individuals who are no longer employed by the school (or in the case of Maltzman, presumably soon to be) for at least 4 years because this is what new coaches are conventionally afforded rings hollow to me. And again, this may all be a moot point as the school may very well have no choice but to stand by MoJo for several years due solely to financial considerations.
alumnus2/13/2018 10:09:40 AM
Late to the party as usual.
Let's look at the guys who left. Smith, terrible to lose him. Marfo, showed nothing except when the game was completely out of reach against Florida State. Even if he had played more -- and why should he have, when Tyler obviously deserved 35 minutes at one power position, and Smith and Toro progressed faster, plus Steeves helped with ballhandling and movement, which we desperately needed -- when you bring in three guys to play the same position at the same time, odds are one's going to feel like he's getting the short end, and leave.
Roland, what can you say? Lonergan barely let him on the court. MoJo got a lot more out of him than a lot of people expected. But when his shot wasn't falling, he didn't contribute a whole lot. Instead of staying and fighting for more time and a leadership role, he left and went to a lower tier conference. You don't want snowflakes. Maybe he's a snowflake.
So, one guy (Smith) who had shown himself to be a serious talent. I think he was mishandled. No question. But just about every coach mishandles some players.
Bigfan, this is the umpteenth time I've read that Mitola "recruiting" his brother to play for Lonergan disproves the allegations. Anyone who's worked in an organization knows that every employee/participant has a different experience. Alex was a guy who'd already graduated from an Ivy who was at GW on a lark. He had nothing to prove or worry about, and so he apparently got along with Lonergan like gangbusters. I had a boss who fawned over graduates of high-level law schools, and dished out the crap to everybody else. It doesn't prove anything about how Lonergan treated players who weren't on his favorites list. I had plenty of bosses who simply wanted yes-men. I wasn't one, and had a completely different experience than the yes-men (and women). So who knows?
free quebec2/13/2018 11:16:31 AM
Alumnus, your post seems to assume that players are the same regardless of coaching. You are right that Marfo showed little last year outside of that FSU game (a few flashes here and there, but he didn't play above the rim and he didn't have much in the way of post footwork to score consistently). However, what would he look like if he spent a year learning under, say, Tom Izzo? Not saying he'd be Draymond Green, but one of the first jobs of a coach is to teach his players to be better.
Rumors I heard last year were that Marfo didn't feel like he was getting much coaching or instruction from the staff, and became disillusioned with the program well before his playing time dwindled.
On Roland, I think it's pretty uncool to say "maybe he's a snowflake." He left, according to a HS coach of his, becuase he didn't respect the coaching staff. That doesn't make him a snowlake, it makes him a guy willing to sacrifice a year of not playing in order to get into a less dysfunctional situation. Also, the notion that Roland only played big minutes because MoJo was the coach, not ML, which you implied, is contradicted by the facts in Japan - where ML played him major minutes and I believe started him most or all games.
On Sina... oh, you left him out. He was an all-Big East rookie team player. That means, pretty much by definition, that he has talent. Some may say he would have left to play in Kosovo even if ML had stayed, but I've heard otherwise. Don't know the truth because I didn't get it from Sina himself, but rumors I heard were that he thought it would be a waste of a year of his career to play under a dysfunctional staff. So even if you want to dimsiss Roland, who would have been a starter and our 1st or 2nd leading scorer this year and Marfo, you have to concede that two guys who showed themselves serious talent chose to leave rather than play for this staff this season.
rich maier2/13/2018 11:31:10 AM
Alumnus, another stellar post. I've tried to explain to Bigfan that just because you can line up support from some players does not mean that the accused did nothing to other players. A simple concept I thought most people would understand. Apparently GW didn't agree with Bigfan's thought process.
porter712/13/2018 12:30:51 PM
Rich & Alumnus...I think you are missing what Bigfan is saying. Maybe Mitola was a favorite as you say and didn’t receive any abuse from ML. However, for your point to be valid he would also have had to never have seen, heard or knew about any of the abusive behavior regarding any other player. Otherwise, he would be sending his brother into a potentially bad situation. I’ve heard Time and time again on this board that ML is a monster and his actions were known far and wide within the program and outside. Which seems strange that Mitola didn’t know any of this. Unless you think Mitola didnt care at all about his teammates and was 100% convinced that his brother would have no issues. Is that your stance?
Also, Alumnus, your snowflake comment is kinda ridiculous. If JR is a snowflake because he didn’t “fight for more time and a leadership role”, wouldnt that also make Savage and PJ snowflakes as well because that’s the reason why they left? Personally, I don’t think any of them are snowflakes. They are all likely tougher people than we are who made a decision that best fit their interests.
old timer2/13/2018 12:47:00 PM
Hurley is a jerk. But maybe a jerk the players like. Fine line to walk.
newgwfan2/13/2018 1:17:39 PM
Also when thinking about the playing time of someone like Roland in his freshman year, you also need to consider the alternatives. Roland was stuck behind McDonald a Senior PG playing 30 minutes per game, a Senior combo guard in Mitola who was the first guard off the bench, a Sophmore Paul Jorgensen averaging 15 minutes per game and Matt Hart a RS JR combo guard averaging 10 minutes a game. Where would you expect Roland to have grabbed minutes from? Roland was seldom used his freshman season, but there was every intention of having him play a major role along with Jorgenson, Sina, & Hart the following year.
thomas2/13/2018 1:17:54 PM
Adding on to Old Timer's comment, I'm assuming that we have lots of coaches who are Arrogant, Angry and Abusive like ML, Larry Eustacy, Bobby Knight and others, but they don't mess with the wrong person(s). The wrong person(s) can be players/coaches who go to the Washington Post to complain, an assistant who secretly records the coach throwing balls at his players(Mike Rice), star players forcing the school to remove the coach(Matt Doherty, Lou Campanelli). Hurley hasn't pissed off the wrong person yet, plus it looks like Rhode Island will be an elite A-10 team/NCAA tourney team as long as he's the coach, so I think he'll be okay until his next job at a BCS school. Hurley may not be able to keep his maniacal tendancies in check at a BCS school when his team is finishing in the middle-of-the-pack or worse and the fanbase is constantly calling for his head!!!
the mv2/13/2018 1:21:19 PM
This is just the wrong story-line to play out. Yes, Mike yelled at his players. Probably called them names and made some salty jokes at their expense. A while back, I gave details about a friend of a friend who played for Mike at Vermont. The player arrived thinking he had a legitimate shot at meaningful playing time. I'd imagine Mike told most everyone that because it was true...everyone had an opportunity to earn minutes. Things didn't work out the way the player had hoped and Mike was alleged to have been verbally abusive towards him. Mike's favorites are the guys good enough to win him some games. He wasn't quite so nice to those who underachieved in his estimation. He was not fired at Vermont because of this and he was not fired at GW solely because of this. Coaches, even in today's politically correct day and age, don't get fired for this unless they badly cross a line. The problem of course is that we are all free to determine where this line should be.
To borrow from Thinker, ML was fired because he could not get along with and allegedly acted disrespectfully towards his boss. PN clearly was interested in building a case against him and rallied some disgruntled players who were the object of some verbal grenades thrown at them to speak to the Post about him. GW administrators combined whatever went wrong with PN along with the player complaints and felt this was more than enough. The likely scenario is that the player complaints, without any of the PN stuff, would not have been enough to fire him with cause (it wasn't at Vermont). The player complaints gave GW a reason to publicly state for his firing. Better that from the school's perspective than to describe why ML and PN were having problems.
The bottom line result of the firing was that everyone within the program was stunned. He had just accompanied the team to Japan. The coaching staff acknowledged that they never thought it would come to this. The players were stunned too. Nobody within the program saw it ending like and when it did, likely because they weren't convinced that any alleged words or actions by ML fit this punishment.
dominic2/13/2018 1:54:38 PM
Yes, Thomas, admit you're wrong. That's the first step. Then, confess your sins. Then, ask for penance.
That's how it's done. My uncle, Father Francis drilled it in me, too.
the dude2/13/2018 2:13:37 PM
Alumnus, excellent post, very well stated.
newgwfan2/13/2018 2:22:15 PM
The MV -
I don't know for a fact, but man you really put together what would be a really logical explination of how things played out. Just a really balanced and fair hypothesis for why this program is in the f*cking toilet. All parties are culpuable and to blame for how things played out.
the mv2/13/2018 2:51:56 PM
Thanks NewGWFan. I think several things are important here. First, even the most staunch defenders of ML are not about to say that ML behaved all of the time like a perfect gentleman. The vast, vast majority of coaches simply don't do this. Could Mike have been more verbally abusive in general than the average college basketball coach? I suppose this might be possible but even if true, there's simply not enough here to fire with cause without bringing the PN problems into it.
Second, and I have said this many times in the past, but I do think it is critical to learn whether ML was antagonized by PN, to learn whether anything PN ever said or did caused ML to fly off the handle or otherwise behave unprofessionally. No, this does not take away the notion that ML may have acted badly. But, it potentially does provide context as to whether ML's words or actions towards or about PN might have been easier to understand, and yes, even accept. It is easy to say that there would be no acceptable circumstance where ML's behavior may have been deemed acceptable but without knowing exactly what the circumstance(s) was, it's impossible in my mind to definitively conclude this.
Finally, to anyone who really wants to make this about ML losing his job because he was verbally abusive towards his players, I would ask this: In the five years that ML coached here, had anyone ever heard anything about ML verbally abusing players before the Post article emerged? One would logically think that over the course of five years, some story or stories would have leaked here to this effect if there was any truth to this. The closest incident I can think of concerns criticisms of ML during postgame press conferences for allegedly "throwing players under the bus." Last time I checked, claiming that so and so needs to stop going for steals 40 feet from the basket or that so and so has to give more effort or have his head in the game or whatever is not how I would define verbal abuse.
This last point warrants some thought. Five years here and not a word I can recall about ML verbally abusing anyone until after the NIT. This doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen (that's not what i'm saying) but you would think that much like it was reported here that Jair would not start against La Salle, some word along these lines would have been leaked here. These things often do.
ollie2/13/2018 3:13:57 PM
Please, sir. May I hear some more?
the dude2/13/2018 3:56:04 PM
When facts have been posted on this site for 3.5 years, a certain someone has rushed onto the site to call facts "lies." When obvious lies about are posted, those are "facts."
Rhode Island has risen to the top based on brilliant recruiting, an undeniable fact. GW has fallen to the bottom after years of missed recruits, undeniable fact.
It is like A Fox News routine. Pure GasLighting. Just like about the ML firing and the BS cover story of Nero the gay predator, ML the innocent whistleblower. PURE Gaslighting.
bigfan2/13/2018 4:09:18 PM
As Porter71 notes, it is beyond nonsensical to think that a player, Alex, wouldn't know what went on in the locker room and any other disgruntled players.
In fact, Alex almost certainly knew the cause of the tension between ML and Nero.
So, someone sending his brother to play for this allegedly abusive coach as a walkon is critically important to weighing this. It's an actual fact, not speculation. You can't wish it away.
This fact that Alex and his parents (paying the bill for this to boot) sent his brother to play for Lonergan could be termed An Inconvenient Truth for the minions and their supporters.
But like the many things that are so very curious in the way things turned out, they would rather demean people posting information and stick their heads ostrich-like in the sand.
Ask around from people who have any shred of real knowledge. They'll tell you. One main storyline is hardly a secret. There's more to this than the approved narrative. Some of it has been presented here.
It's a drag on any even remotely intelligent discussion to ignore this reality or try and deflect with name-calling, smug catchphrases implying bias without actually saying anything, and other smokescreens.
fan2/13/2018 4:12:36 PM
the mv2/13/2018 4:35:28 PM
Call them the way I see them. When you lie, which is often, I'm happy to call you out on it. Like when you preach here how nobody should be too surprised by this team's poor play despite your 17-15, 9-9 in conference prediction. The prediction isn't a lie, but when you go on to make your other statement despite having made your earlier prediction, well, that's a lie.
URI has done a great job with recruiting, nothing wrong with that statement. GW has fallen to the bottom because of a coaching change that threw the program in turmoil, causing several "to have been counted on" players to transfer or leave the program early. This has led to a lack of depth what with only two of four MoJo recruited freshmen becoming regular rotation players despite this lack of depth.
Before the coaching change, GW was winning an NIT Championship and had been to three consecutive NCAA or NIT tournaments. Despite all of this success, you were still crowing about missed recruits even back then, so I'm very unconvinced that yours should be considered the most credible voice on the subject. Or, even a credible one to begin with.
formercolonial2/13/2018 4:53:08 PM
BigFan, MV, NewGWFan, Skittles and a few others are fairly accurate with their comments. Just don't let the minions convince you that ML crossed the line or was abusive. He didn't and he wasn't. I was there. I was part of a great program with a great leader. ML never flew off the handle. He didn't call players names or make salty jokes. He didn't get drunk on road trips. He didn't throw his players under the bus. He called them out as motivation and it worked every time. Please produce proof of ML blaming a player for a loss. You can't because he never did. He would say his teams needed to play harder. That is callled motivation and pushing the right buttons. He did this after a loss 3 years ago and he did it once or twice a year for 30 years. He was at GW for 5 years and we never heard or saw any abuse. People are starting to figure things out. He held players accountable but loved them like his sons. Ask Tyler, Jack Granger. They will all tell you the same thing, from the best player to a walkon. Just don't let the minions convince you that he did say some bad things because it didn't happen. We thought he liked the AD. He never said a negative word about him in front of the team or at alumni events. I was there and my friends and i talk about it all the time. He is innocent. Every allegation was false. We are pissed he is gone. None of the fake poster names will discredit anything I wrote here. They aren't GW fans but 1 or 2 people trying to keep the truth from being told. When moJo is gone maybe he will tell you why he got the job. Those that know the truth are afraid to speak out. We fear retaliation or being labeled unfairly.
2cents2/13/2018 6:26:15 PM
Of course it’s hard to say for sure, and purely fun speculation, but what might our lineup look like this year if some important pieces hadn’t transferred or left... PJ, Roland, Smith, Marfo, Sina, etc. along with some of the current squad. Maybe even Bryant or Griffin in the mix? All of a sudden ML’s recruiting doesn’t look so bad to me. I’d take that team over this one any day. It’d definitely be a strong contender for A-10 this year and a good bet it’d be a team headed to the dance.
gw05092/13/2018 6:34:47 PM
I'm confused at to why those who know the truth are afraid to speak out? Who can retaliate against you? What reprocusions are there if you or someone “in the know” go on The Sports Junkies or Ben Standig’s podcast and finally be the whistleblower for the huge coverup of completely false allegations? Would you break a confidentiality agreement? Would it cause ML to break HIS nondisparagement clause in his settlement? At this point I don’t see what the holdup is.
the dude2/13/2018 6:55:11 PM
0509 lol. Well, its just more Gaslighting!
bigfan2/13/2018 7:49:41 PM
Pretty clear posting by Former Colonial.
He and others who know should post more details.
Don't know why it hasn't surfaced. You literally could not seriously report this situation without coming across another side of the story. The odd quote from Nero's attorney (why would Nero need an attorney?) Never mentioned. The article raised more questions than it answers, which is really odd.
The reason why it is not surfacing is likely that it is a delicate subject, not fitting narratives, especially in a university.
And exemplified by our favorite virtue-signaler and now another poster reterring to it in a dismissive shorthand to cut off any debate, any factual points that someone might dare note and smear the former coach.
gw05092/13/2018 8:30:07 PM
“The reason why it is not surfacing is likely that it is a delicate subject, not fitting narratives, especially in a university.“
I can buy that my very well be a reason why the University wouldn’t give us more information, but I don’t understand why not a single media outlet reported anything contrary to the Washington Post story in over a year and a half (save for one allusion from one of The Sports Junkies)? Either there really isn’t more to the story, at least not enough to completely discredit the Post story, or frankly no one locally outside of a few of us diehards actually gives a shit about whether ML was unjustly fired.
Again, if the “real story” involves the highest members of the university conspiring with disgruntled former students and staff to 100% fabricate a story to destroy a successful program and a successful coach, as is suggested by Former Colonial, it would seem to me some media outlet would want to run that story sometime in the past year and a half. The amount of clicks they’d generate from that bombshell of a story would more than make up for any hit from it being a “delicate subject.”
chet2/13/2018 8:42:14 PM
Who you gonna believe 0509? Some anonymous sources, as reported by the rag that drove Dick Nixon out of office? Or a guy who sweated Buff & Blue, and knows for a fact that Mike Lonergan is a man without sin?
formercolonial2/13/2018 8:53:43 PM
The Junkies and other media members are afraid of the subject matter. They don't want to be sued or labeled h--------c. Ask Standig or the Junkies off the record. Ask the players or MoJo. The problem is the minions don't know any of the people in the know and have no credibility.
chet2/13/2018 9:02:50 PM
The junkies look like a bunch of bums, who live in their Momma's basements. And, it's hard to believe any of them can even find a Metro stop to get them to a college campus.
But, you're right, of course. Every guy I know is afraid of subject matter. Every c-t, too. And, those guys aren't h--------c, that's for certain. No labels on them. Who'd even try to put one on them?
bigfan2/13/2018 9:05:08 PM
Watergate comparison is obviously ridiculous.
This is what Former Colonial says about coming forward:"Those that know the truth are afraid to speak out. We fear retaliation or being labeled unfairly."
GW bought silence on the issue, but hopefully Former Colonial and others on any side, will come forward with whatever they know on this board.
It's not in the past. We are living it now as cellar dwellers. We should know why and weigh whether it was worth it.
chet2/13/2018 9:07:54 PM
I like the short bald one. The Junky who covers his bald head with a wool cap, and wears a beard to cover up, well, everything you need a beard to cover up.
How the heck do you figure they can take the heat in Momma's basement? They must all have those miniature fans under those wool caps. Got to, to keep them from getting fried brains.
chet2/13/2018 9:10:35 PM
Of course it's ridiculous, Big. The 'Lame' stream media always is dopey. But, they can fool some of the people all the time. That's what they count on.
I'm glad, FC, you know the score. And, you're so courageous. You, too, Big.
gw future2/13/2018 9:11:45 PM
All I have to say minions is tick tock tick tock the story is on the clock. You’ve only heard what you’ve heard. More to come. Patience. In the meantime enjoy the meltdown on the court it will precede the meltdown off it.
the dude2/13/2018 9:14:14 PM
Pure Gaslighting. Take a look at the list of URI recruits in those years, then look at GW's recruits in those years.
When you watch URI play, and then watch GW, this is what you are seeing.
Just like with the ML and AD story. Want to know what happened, read the nation's top paper, and a half dozen eye witnesses. 19 months of gaslighting from 1 guy under a dozen "different identities" is pure BS gaslighting.
3 years I began a thread showing how URI was trending straight from the bottom, headed to the top of the league, and warned GW would fall heavily if we didn't stop the trend of empty HS recruiting classes. That this an even a discussion, after it played exactly like that, well that's just Gaslighting too.
chet2/13/2018 9:18:54 PM
Sorry, buddy. I've had 2 Alka Seltzers, and my head is spinning. Are you 'The Dude' 'The Real Dude' 'The DOUCHE' or, 'The MV' making believe he's 'The Dude' so as to point out how 'The Dude' lies, and pushes his lies into 'The MV's' face, month and month after month?
I better lie down. Or is it lay down?
porter712/13/2018 9:33:35 PM
Pretty sure the Dude has a bet going to see how many times he can use the term gaslighting in one thread.
gw future2/13/2018 9:39:24 PM
Dummy Dude can’t use term Gaslighting just once. He just learned it while at the counter at Kinkos. Overheard a customer say “Gaslighting” and here we are. Expect him to “photocopy” the term here to impress the assistant manager with his newfound vocabulary. What a dumb fuck!
chet2/13/2018 9:43:00 PM
I just wish somebody would explain it to me. It sounds like a word, either from 1920, or, from some modern music I have not heard.
rich maier2/13/2018 9:55:57 PM
Chet, I wonder if all the people who support ML, saying they know ML is no abuser, are with these players 100% of the time. Bigfan checking the showers, Former Colonial sleeping at their house and MV walking into the bathroom with them just to make sure things on the up and up. And there are 13 players. So 13 members of the ML gang live 24/7 with the players. That's the only way to know. Let me say the lonergan gang has no idea what our ex coach did or didn't do with his athletes. Chet I think you'd agree.
chet2/13/2018 10:03:02 PM
Rich, I like your good sense, and, I'd love to concur with you. But, somehow, I think you're off base.
Because: 1) Former Colonial is a genuine Former Colonial and b) Yes, I can believe that MV does walk into the bathroom with the players. He simply cares more than any of us. He's said so, so it must be so.
I hope to see your GW diploma Rich. Because, it would be a first for me.
chet2/13/2018 10:03:49 PM
Damn. Who would think a guy could OD on Alka Seltzer.
newgwfan2/13/2018 11:14:29 PM
As this thread turns into a "Gaslighting" back and forth whatever that means. I do think one aspect of the ML drama thta never got enough discussion was the Rutgers rumors that popped up during the NIT run. I remember when the stories started being reported that ML was connected with the Rutgers job and was interviewed for the position, it really had me shocked. I never saw Rutgers as a logical fit if ML were to ever "move up" from GW. I believe Hurley was first persued for the position, but took himself out of the running, and then the second choice seemed to be Lonergan who again from my recollection was brought in for an interview, but pretty quickly removed himself from the opening, before Rutgers moved on to Steve Pikell.
In every interview I ever saw, ML never seemed to be afraid from sending the message that GW was to him a final destination. Now coaches always say those things, and I think it was common knowledge that ML coveted the UMD job, and would have done anything to take that position. But I did find it borderline shocking that ML was connected with the Rutgers opening and took an interview for the position. Now his motivations for it could have been any number of reasons. Actual interest in the position, leverage for an extension/better extra's for the GW program like travel budget, respect for the Rutgers AD who had interviewed him for Seton Hall years ago, knowledge in hindsight of the Title IX investegation (that he was cleared from by the University). The quote from ML was the following about the interview he had with Rutgers....
``I just think Rutgers has a terrific AD,’’ said Lonergan following his team’s 87-71 win at Monmouth in a second-round NIT game Monday night. ``He’s a great guy. He had interviewed me for the Seton Hall job a long time ago. I just had one phone conversation with him and that was really it.’’
I always just thought that situation was so strange, and then with how the events unfolded in the offseason with the Washington Post article from Adam Kilgore. I wonder if this was somehow a catalyst for the tension between ML and PN? Did PN feel disrespected by ML's comments? Was there a situation where ML used that interview as leverage, did his agent contact GW about an extension. Maybe PN didn't want to extend ML due to the player abuse that he was aware of, but couldn't make the case to get rid of him because he was cleared by the Title IX investegation?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always felt like that Rutgers situation, had something to do with the "rift" between ML and the Administration.
gwb2/14/2018 1:05:57 AM
I just have a few more things to add.
First and foremost I honestly think ML was a great guy. I believe that what he probably said is the same exact stuff every coach says to a group of players who are supposed to be men. I’m sure some of you have played sports before do you not remember some of the crazy hilarious things coaches say to a group of men? Playing like a pussy, like a bitch, your balls haven’t dropped, and much worse things I won’t get into blah blah coaches say this shit to a group of men. This millennial age however is soft and I think the bad apples who didn’t get playing time got to WaPo. I don’t think he deserved to be fired but he did and here we are.
The Dude makes some good points about recruits and you all are crushing him. However, what I think so many of you are missing is the other factors as well.
How about the fact that like was said all of players from last year transferred down or laterally.
People are talking about PJ being on this team but quickly forget who couldn’t develop him and had such a short leash for him.
Does it mean nothing that 2 of his better guard recruits transferred and both up and both have had success at a better program and stronger conference? Kethan, not to mention Kromah.
MLs A10 record was 44-39. A10 Tourny 3-5. How many A10 title appearnaces? 0.
We are raving about 1 NCAA tournament appearance and 2 NITs.
Meanwhile, URI. In literally Kingston, Rhode Island. The smallest state in the USA, Hurley in year 6 is going to his 2nd straight tourney. Already won a game and took a Final Four team to the wire losing by 3. Already won A-10 Tournament. They are running away with the regular season crown in year 6.
ML peaked in year 3. Disappointed in year 4. Year 5 we had an NCAA tournament team. We go 11-7 in conference, last 10 games of the season we go 5-5. Blow a 16 point lead in the tourney that could have at least given us a shot.
AND We weren’t getting back anytime soon either we were honestly going in the other direction. Last years team was his squad and they were not going to NCAAs even with Ty. Then Ty is gone and we have to rebuild again. MLs chance to sustain early success was year 4 and year 5 and he failed. Year 4 we go 10-8 Kethan transfers out under ML and then thrives at Butler. Year 5 11-7 with a very good team and still haven’t gotten back to A-10 semis since Zeke and Creek.
He couldn’t keep the potential elite guards, we had he underachieved and I just don’t understand why we think he was such a great coach either.
I know last place sucks this year but do we want to be a perennial NIT team?
OR do we want to have URI teams that get to back-to-back tourneys, SLU teams who go to 3 in a row. Davidson has been to 3 since 2013. Saint Joe’s 2 of the last 4. Mooney over at UR took them to two NCAAs in his first six seasons including a Sweet 16.
La Salle even made the tourney in 12-13 and at least made a run to the sweet 16! UMASS was a #6 seed in 2014. Bonnies went in 2012. Mason in 2011.
I don’t even need to mention VCU and Dayton.
Literally every team in the A-10 besides Duquesne and Fordham has made the tourney since 2011.
if you notice the teams who went to multiple tourneys did so within the next few years and sustained success. ML went once in 5 years, (let’s be real wasn’t going in year 6) and sure, year 7 who knows what would have happened but I have my doubts trying to replace Ty especially with a coach who couldn’t get quality guards and/or keep and develop the few he had.
All im saying is let’s give MOJO his years and see what he does because to me it doesn’t look like ML was the answer either.
bobo2/14/2018 9:36:59 AM
The problem with doing what you are proposling, GWB, and "give MoJo his years and see what he does" is that there is simply no rational basis to believe he will be successful at GW.
MoJo is not just simply young and inexperienced. He is clearly unqualified for the job he's currently in.
MoJo had most likely the flimsiest resume of any head coach taking over a that position in the last 2 years in D1 basketball.
No head coaching experience anywhere, ever.
Very short record as an assistant coach.
No record of developing players as an assistant coach.
No record of recruiting success as an assistant coach. Almost all assistant coaches that move onto a head coaching position have some proven success as a main recruiter as an assistant.
Last year wasn't terrible but certainly wasn't anything special in terms of the play on the court of the team. "Things didn't completely fall apart" is the most MoJo backers seem to be able to claim for the first season.
This year has been a complete dumpster fire by GW. Terrrible, uninspired and disjointed play on a consistent basis. The worst performance of any GW team in 25+ years.
A moderately attractive incoming class next year doesn't make up for the rest of the negative marks against MoJo.
Obviously any new AD for GW will want to put their own choice in control of the flagship program.
Let's pick a good AD and let that AD pick their own head coach for GW and then everyone get on board and support that change.
dominic2/14/2018 10:26:19 AM
BigFan, I love ya.
But, the very definition of 'university' is that there is no subject in the universe that is too delicate to be fit for study and narration.
Hell, my cousin got a Masters on the sex life of the common fruit fly. And, his wife studies mushrooms. Can you imagine that? She's a post-doc, too. In fungi. Worked on the connection between smegma and cancer. I really don't enjoy dinners with those two any more. But, they've convinced me: if it exists, it's worth knowing about. And, if its non-existent, leave it to the Religious Studies Department.
Bobo, flimsy resumes are all the rage these days. Just look at the Junkies. All they got going for them is their silly headgear. And, they're as well thought of, considered as verifiable and well-sourced, as folks at The Washington Post, by guys here on GWHOOPS.
Their Mommas got to be proud.
the mv2/14/2018 10:41:57 AM
NewGWFan, I think you are a bit off of the mark with the Rutgers scenario. In fact, you more or less answered your own concern. First, ML did not have any serious interest in the Rutgers job despite an opportunity to approximately triple his pay. His motivation in going on the interview was to learn more about the perks and amenities that the Rutgers program had. Consider it a fact finding mission that might have allowed him to go back to GW and ask for certain things, such as more chartered flights as an example. From the school's perspective, there has always been an understanding that GW is a stepping-stone program for most successful coaches. Mike Jarvis was practically shoved out the door to take the St. John's job...it was simply too much money and too much prestige for him to turn his back on (little did anyone know). I suppose Rutgers could have flashed a $3 million/year salary at ML and maybe he would have thought twice about that. But I do believe that he genuinely always wanted to end up at GW (if not Maryland as you suggest).
GWB, ML was here for five years but much like we readily discount MoJo's first season, ML's first season where he was hired very late in the game and was only able to bring John Kopriva to GW should similarly be discarded. So, we're talking 4 years with his own recruits and 3 of those years resulted in 1 NCAA and 2 NIT appearances (with an NIT Championship). I wouldn't summararily dismiss an NIT season for this program. Making the NCAA's should always be the goal, but making the NIT is by no means a sign of a bad year. I don't think anyone here ever said that ML was the sport's greatest coach but it's hard to argue that he's not a serious upgrade compared to his far less experienced staff without him.
porter712/14/2018 11:10:58 AM
"I know last place sucks this year but do we want to be a perennial NIT team?" - Yes. I would much rather us be a perrenial NIT team with an established coach that gas a chance at an NCAA tournament birth than be a team with a hot commodity coach who will have a couple years of success before leaves for a better programs, leaving the school to start all over again. So, long term, I would rather be Davidson than Rhode Island. ML could have stayed long term. Hurley definitely isn't.
GWB - It seems like your position is ML probably shoudn't have been fired, but it is ok because the team wasn't that good and MoJo will likely be a better coach. I haven't seen anything that indicates he is better as a recruiter or as an in game coach. Hope you're right though. However, your arguments remind me of people talking about Syracuse football back in the 1990s about how the team underachieved and if we only had a better coach we would be a national power. That was literally an argument in the fan base. Eventually they did fire the coach and brought in a first time head coach. Been a dumpster fire ever since.
bobo2/14/2018 1:31:58 PM
Its true that Resumes can deceive. The best way to pick a Coach is by counting the number of strands of hair he he clinging to otherwise bare parts of the head. ML has Maurice beat by a mile in that regard.
dave2/14/2018 1:35:49 PM
How many games did Maurice win his first year? How many games did Mike?
dominic2/14/2018 1:59:34 PM
Bobo-It's nice to see you smile for a change.
Dave- You're not the other Dave are you? The guy who finds certain things "unacceptable"?
Anyway, I think it's remarkable that the Junkies can make a living yahooing about games little boys play, while my cousin is barely scraping by, when his study of the fruit fly has got international notice. He must need to wear a wool cap indoors, and play with his beard more.
mentzinger2/14/2018 2:01:05 PM
How many GW coaches have beaten Miami, Virginia, Wichita State, Creighton, Rutgers AND Maryland?
Only better performances against Power 6 teams I can remember was KH over Providence, Michigan State and Maryland; KH losing in NCAAs to George Tech; and Jarvis over UMass.
the dude2/14/2018 3:05:47 PM
GWB, excellent posts.
formercolonial2/14/2018 3:15:56 PM
Mentzinger- Geogia, Colorado, Penn State, Florida, Valpo, San Diego St, VCU, Rhody, Manhattan, Richmond, Dayton, Davidson, Monmouth...... All good programs at the time of the game. Our former coach was 8-0 vs George Mason as well in the overhyped Revolutionary Rivalry. He took one call from a friend, the AD at Rutgers, and was offered the job which he turned down. Rutgers would never have offered the job to an abusive coach. They knew Coach Lonergan was a hot coach with an impeccable reputation. Coach Lonergan would never have stayed at GW if he thought the false allegations would lead to his unjust firing. Our former coach also turned down the BC job. I only deal with facts. Not lies from minions. Coach loved it here and wanted to stay and retire here. The only job he would have considered is Maryland and he may not have gone there because he loved qorking with high quality student-athletes. He had his best recruiting class coming in and had Steeves and Sina ready to join them and Tyler and Yuta-the 2 best players he ever recruited. The lies of minions and Dude using some of his fake names today, GWB/Chet, today don't change the facts. Even the longwinded b.s. artist who calls himself Thinker can't dispute the facts. We lost a Hall of Fame coach and man who was 100% innocent. Everyone in our program the last 7 years knows it.
bigfan2/14/2018 3:26:19 PM
Be good to get some more details, Former Colonial. Thanks.
the mv2/14/2018 3:46:12 PM
I've asked this question once before but it went unanswered. Bigfan politely has been asking it for about a year and a half.
GWFuture has indicated that there is more to tell, and that it will eventually come out here without committing to a timetable.
Skittles has indicated that he is aware of things that have not been made public.
Former Colonial is posting from the position of one who knows all there is to know, but can't share any of these details here out of fear of being unfairly labeled.
Obviously, nobody is ready to come clean with all of the details. My question is what has to happen or what has to change so that the information does get presented here? This question is open to all of you but probably best answered by GWFuture since he is the one who has indicated that the full truth will come out here. I can't envision the school making any announcements. ML must remain silent as conditions of his settlement. GWFuture is asking for patience but my question is why? What will happen in the future that will allow information that isn't being presented here today to make its way here?
I do believe there is more to this story. The problem though is when you lead people to believe that you have information but then continue not to share it, we're left wondering why and when. And if enough time goes by, it becomes more difficult to believe that you really do have this information. I happen to believe all three of you, or at the very least, would like to carefully consider what you have to say.
So again, I'm not asking anyone to prematurely post anything. What I am asking is what will need to change so that you will be able to convey this information. Thanks.
the dude2/14/2018 3:52:43 PM
If you took a job April 29th 2017, and as some are suggesting, the 1 player worth keeping for next season, is a guy you recruited days later (Terry Nolan Jr) doesn't that answer the question?
Doc69, LSF, others have said so on that other thread. So, how did GW get here? Was it maybe, you know, 4 years worth of missed HS recruits from your predecessor?
the dude2/14/2018 3:59:45 PM
How about, you know, 8 months later, keeping the guy, Mojo, who landed Terry Nolan Jr, the guy who has 5 more like him arriving in June, you don't make a change because the prior Coach left behind a bare cupboard 8 months into the job. GW fans should be rooting for the man to succeed, not trying to drive him out of town as he's just getting started. Ridiculous stuff.
dominic2/14/2018 4:00:21 PM
I remain fascinated with the Junkies. How the fuck do they make a living? And, why the winter wool caps, indoors?
I'd like to know what h----------c is (assuming I spelled it right). And, I agree. What does gaslight mean?
gw05092/14/2018 5:05:36 PM
Thanks MV, that is what I was trying to get at last night. It would seem to me that enough time has passed, and enough of the staff at GW (Nero and Knapp at least) have moved on, that the potential for retribution for disclosing the rest of the story would be minimal if not zero. I too would consider any additional information, but with so much time passing, it makes me doubt there really is more to the story and also how that info was acquired.
If it was acquired from someone who otherwise is under a non-disparagement clause, or the person posting is him/herself under a non-disparagement clause, then they should say so and probably stop alluding to the info alltogether. If not, then like you said, they should state why the information is still so tightly under wraps if so many people in and around the program seem to know the true story.
dominic2/14/2018 5:11:42 PM
Just made me a supper, half for now, half later. Damn, I can cook.
I caught 10 minutes of The Best of the Junkies.
It takes 3 or 4 of them to put together a complete thought. I hadn't seen them in a while, because they don't fit my schedule these days.
I'll have to rely on what BF or FC tell us about news from The Junkies, because, they're too slow moving for my tastes. And, even though I used to wear a full beard myself (red and blond), I can't hack the little bearded Junky, the guy with the wool winter knit cap and the antennae. I get sweated up, just watching him wiggle in his chair and try to think, string a few words together.
He's no damned Dan Rather.
He's either scared of some terrible retribution, like FC suggests, or he's got attention deficit. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
gw future2/14/2018 5:26:08 PM
Some of the information would expose former student athletes and would possibly be a violation of Privacy Act rules.
gw future2/14/2018 5:28:33 PM
I have no interest in doing that. However, others are hard at work sourcing the story. Don’t worry like everything else just have some patience. When it’s the right time you will know all you need to know. The truth is very complicated but not what the Minions want you to believe.
gw future2/14/2018 5:30:45 PM
And when the story comes out it won’t be sourced with anonymous quotes.
gw future2/14/2018 5:32:59 PM
I am not subject to any agreement but am not at liberty to discuss details presently for other reasons.
bigfan2/14/2018 6:51:08 PM
Know there's more there and have indicated part of it.
Only part of it.
But since the names are out of at least the former student athletes who played basketball, don't know why it would be necessary to worry about them.
Also, is anyone actually working the story from a perspective that includes what prompted things? Hard to believe, given the radioactivity of the subject. But if so, let us know.
chet2/14/2018 9:55:38 PM
Big Fan-you've been a great supporter of Colonial basketball over the years, from what I've heard.
But, the mystery of St. Mike's departure is likely to endure, unexplained.
Heck, we've got a totally anonymous and imaginary source, who cannot possibly be identified or discovered. He knows absolutely everything there is to know about St. Mike, because he resides in the coach's gym bag at Smith, then snuggles up between sheets with the Saint and his Mrs. He's camouflaged better than The Holy Ghost, and he is unknowable to all. Yet, he exists, trembling at the thought of discovery, because a group of Momma's Boys totally lacking in sartorial splendor might find him out while they're yucking it up playing Make Believe Ath-a-lete, and turn him in to The Powers That Be.
I guarantee. We'll all know Heaven or Hell before this mystery is resolved.
gw future2/14/2018 10:25:40 PM
I’d bet large on your theory Chet. I’ll be visiting you underneath the Key Bridge. Don’t worry I will bring you blankets. The only imaginary force here is the man of many screen names.
bobo2/15/2018 1:15:03 AM
Lonergan just couldn't recruit once Sutton and Strickland left.
the mv2/15/2018 10:26:26 AM
GWFuture, you say that others are hard at work sourcing the story. Can we take this to mean that at least one if not more media outlets will be providing more details? if not the media, who are you referring to when you say others?
formercolonial2/15/2018 10:27:37 AM
Strickland recruited one player, Griffin, and Sutton helped with Garino and Larsen. That is it. Coach Lonergan was instrumental in all of our recruiting. He personally recruited every one in the program. Even walkons who he got to turn down DI scholarships to come here as paying walkons, McCoy, Hart & Skyler. Yes, they all had DI scholarhips. Hajj and Coach Lonergan did 90% of the recruiting. Ask any player. The minions won't do that. They will just post lies under my name and others who post facts because they are mad the truth is being told.
dominic2/15/2018 10:52:20 AM
MV, try to keep the names of your imaginary friends straight for us, ok?
Nice to know, Former has a Future.
the mv2/15/2018 11:27:38 AM
Former Colonial, I'm aware that Strickland wasn't pulling his weight with the recruiting which led to his parting ways with the program. However, I thought that he had been pretty instrumental (along with ML) in bringing Zeke Armwood to GW. Any truth to this?
Dom, I'm trying very hard not to engage in your nonsense which also includes the nonsense of all of those phony aliases that you are also behind. You are accusing me of doing the very thing that you have been doing, and have been blatantly exposed for doing. As for me, I have said here that I would swear on anyone or anything that what I have said here, and what I am saying right now, is the truth. Mailvan (not for many years), The MV, The Douche (maybe 5 times), The NV (1 time, typo), The MVIT (1 time, typo). That is the complete list of screen names I have posted as. I know you're grappling with getting past the fact that you are a juvenile jerk and I am not, but you're just going to have to deal with that because it's the God's honest truth. Where I come from, people aren't willing to swear on anyone or anything unless they are absolutely telling the truth. That's why I'm saying this. It's because I don't know how to convince you otherwise.
Understand that you are completely in the wrong here. If you think I've been posting under established poster names, you couldn't possibly be more off base.
dominic2/15/2018 12:35:57 PM
Sorry, MV. I have to get totally stoned to come here most days.
dick maier2/15/2018 1:40:40 PM
Blessed to have Mojo.
the mv2/15/2018 2:16:31 PM
Ziik, most of the problems on the board have been because of you.
the mv2/15/2018 2:28:41 PM
The 2:16 post may very well be true, but it did not come from me. Carry on jerk-off.
gw future2/15/2018 2:33:40 PM
Stop responding to the stoner. According to the Minions it’s all one poster. You know why that is? Distraction away from the real cold truth.
MV the answer to the above is media. We shall see but I believe the sleuths are on the hunt for information.
former colonial2/15/2018 3:49:59 PM
My donations stopped when I was told in 2015 Mike was abusing the players. Now that he is gone I donate again.
edward2/17/2018 2:12:51 AM
Only one program was derailed after the Coach was fired for abusing his players.
newgwfan2/17/2018 12:52:08 PM
On the court Hurley acts like a psycho but his players dig him. ML was loathed by his players. Well at least half of them. Hurley also has a dignified Balding approach. Ml went with the Charlie Brown meets David Axelrod hairstyle
luvdagame2/17/2018 1:53:42 PM
I’d like to add to The MV’s post at 10:26:26 AM on 2/15/18 - also will this sourcing come from an independent and neutral outlet? I am not interested in hearing from neither the Pro-ML nor Pro-Nero/GWU camp.
the dude2/17/2018 2:16:51 PM
The pro GW camp? Aren't we all supposedly in THAT camp? That's my camp, my only camp, pro GW.
luvdagame2/17/2018 2:34:51 PM
Pro-GW in that you agree with their reason for firing ML. Sure I support GW doesn’t mean I may agree with all their decisions. C’mon The Dude don’t dig for something that is not there or not intended.
the dude2/17/2018 2:57:01 PM
Haha Luv, I think you misread my comment as directed at you or specifically rebutting your comment. It wasn't. I was making a somewhat separate point.
luvdagame2/17/2018 2:59:14 PM
@The Dude - gotcha!!!
ziik jr2/17/2018 4:49:07 PM
Mail Van, how about you stop with your lies and deceptions, you gaslighting bastard.
ms. ziik is dead and ziik’s life is over. None of us is posting.
Your repeated references to our family are despicable and you are repugnant.
gw future2/17/2018 7:50:27 PM
Nobody believes that Ziik Jr. about the posting. Nobody at all. The writing style of many of the posts is just coincidentally almost identical. Just stop.
captain trips2/18/2018 12:46:04 PM
How does Rhode Island look for next year?
dave2/19/2018 4:32:13 AM
Captain, they lose a lot. But they are pretty loaded and deep, and have a top 75 national recruit, he is a big man too.
tjt2/20/2018 9:34:30 AM
Hurley's players love him. He has not had an outbound transfer of a non graduate player in several years (I think last may have been back in 2015). Even players that have gotten little playing time have stayed.
Rhode Island loses five seniors this year and will take a step back. Will still return three players that see significant time - Jeff Dowtin, Cyril Langevine, and Fats Russell. Have a top 25 recruiting class coming in next season with some having DMV ties - top 75 PF Jermaine Harris from Upper Marlboro, MD-Rock Creek Christian / PG Brendan Adams (younger taller brother of Jaylen at SBU) Baltimore, MD-Clavert Hall / SG Tyrese Martin Allentown, PA-Massanutten Military Academy (VA) / SF Dana Tate San Diego, CA-McDuffie School (MA).
flush2/20/2018 5:51:23 PM
That is a good incoming class.